Need Grammar Help

the real dill · Post by **the real dill** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:58 pm

I don't consider myself an old, but this guy I just hired (fresh off his MBA from Indiana) keeps busting my balls on 2 items:

1. Double space after a period in business emails.
2. Ending texts with a period

Am I old?

ASUCatFan · Post by **ASUCatFan** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:11 pm

1: I was taught that was the correct way to punctuate when i was in school. Has that changed?

2: What's wrong with using proper punctuation in text messages?

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:13 pm

Double space after a period has always been correct?

Merkin · Post by **Merkin** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:17 pm

I still double space after periods, but I am old. But Word accepts either one.

Rarely use periods in texts.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:18 pm

Merkin wrote:I still double space after periods, but I am old. But Word accepts either one.

Rarely use periods in texts.

I'm a lot younger than your and as recently as 10 years ago I was always told and taught you always double space after periods

RichardCranium · Post by **RichardCranium** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:33 pm

I'm old

I don't remember double spacing after periods

) I'll check it out in Strunk or Harbrace - they're on my bookshelf somewhere

Does anybody remember books or bookshelves

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:35 pm

RichardCranium wrote:I'm old I don't remember double spacing after periods ) I'll check it out in Strunk or Harbrace - they're on my bookshelf somewhere

Does anybody remember books or bookshelves

I know bookshelves. It's where i keep my 8 track tapes.

CalStateTempe · Post by **CalStateTempe** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:50 pm

http://www.beardownwildcats.com/viewtop ... er#p112216" target="_blank

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:55 pm

Two spaces after a period was necessary on typewriters with the standard courier font because of the wide space between the final letter and the period, which required an extra space on the other side to clarify the end of the sentence. Anybody who thinks you're supposed to continue that past the 1980s is the same kind of jackass who thinks you shouldn't end sentences with a preposition because it matters in Latin. Call him out.

RichardCranium · Post by **RichardCranium** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:56 pm

Just as I hit enter on the above post, I remembered about double spacing after periods. It was to ensure that there was enough visual space between sentences. In a fixed width font like 99% of all typewriters (most of which used something akin to Courier), a single space just wasn't wide enough. An 'I' was exactly as wide as an 'M' as was a period and a space and if IIRC, the period was centered in the type slug. The space helped enforce a 'mental pause' between sentences.

Neither Harbrace nor Strunk and White address the issue. Nor does Lester in Writing Research Papers (1967) and it actually has a typewriter on the cover.

I think it was something of a typist's convention as opposed to 'usage'. Those books I mentioned were talking about 'proper usage'.

Proportional fonts, and WYSIWYG word processors have done away with the necessity to think about that stuff anyway. I remember finding out that WordPerfect would do it for you automagically and I have never thought about it since.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:57 pm

Longhorned wrote:Two spaces after a period was necessary on typewriters with the standard courier font because of the wide space between the final letter and the period, which required an extra space on the other side to clarify the end of the sentence. Anybody who thinks you're supposed to continue that past the 1980s is the same kind of jackass who thinks you shouldn't end sentences with a preposition because it matters in Latin. Call him out.

Growing up in the 90s in school it was pounded into our heads that you always had two spaces. No matter what or the red pen would come out and mark it as an error.

the real dill · Post by **the real dill** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:59 pm

CalStateTempe wrote:http://www.beardownwildcats.com/viewtop ... er#p112216

Definitely merge this thread, but I'm told by a HS English teacher we had dinner tonight with you should not double space after periods. She said it's an old word processor issue that has been resolved.

Longhorned?

Edit: saw his response. Finished my degrees up in '01 and double space wa still a requirement.

I'm still not sure this is accepted in business writinng.

And, Jesus, you can end a sentence in a preposition?

I guess I'm an old. Not OK and looks incorrect to me.

RichardCranium · Post by **RichardCranium** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:08 pm

azgreg wrote:I know bookshelves. It's where i keep my 8 track tapes.

Dude, I just checked out CST's link to an old thread in the post below yours.

In that thread you posted an EPIC rant about misusing words and punctuation.

I don't know whether or not you built it or stole it from somewhere, but be advised that I just stole it and reserve the right to spread it anywhere I darn well please!

In re UofA · Post by **In re UofA** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:10 pm

I remember working on a group paper in college and having to remove the needless spaces on someone's pages for continuity. What a pain.

Honestly, why do people perpetuate such nonsence?

the real dill · Post by **the real dill** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:11 pm

He tells me ending a text with a period is "aggressive"

Longhorned?

the real dill · Post by **the real dill** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:14 pm

In re UofA wrote:I remember working on a group paper in college and having to remove the needless spaces on someone's pages for continuity. What a pain.
?@
Honestly, why do people perpetuate such nonsence?

I mean, how old are you? This is crazy to me.

RichardCranium · Post by **RichardCranium** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:15 pm

the real dill wrote:Definitely merge this thread, but I'm told by a HS English teacher we had dinner tonight with you should not double space after periods. She said it's an old word processor issue that has been resolved.

Typewriter as "word processor". No. A typewriter is a letter processor.

And, Jesus, you can end a sentence in a preposition?
...
...I'm told by a HS English teacher we had dinner tonight with...

(I know, you didn't end the sentence at that point, but it was the end of the clause and it has a similar effect).

the real dill · Post by **the real dill** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:24 pm

RichardCranium wrote:
the real dill wrote:Definitely merge this thread, but I'm told by a HS English teacher we had dinner tonight with you should not double space after periods. She said it's an old word processor issue that has been resolved.
Typewriter as "word processor". No. A typewriter is a letter processor.

And, Jesus, you can end a sentence in a preposition?
...
...I'm told by a HS English teacher we had dinner tonight with...

(I know, you didn't end the sentence at that point, but it was the end of the clause and it has a similar effect).

Ha. Fair enough. Message board talk isn't the same as business email. Full disclosure, I commented on an email he wrote (we have a good relationship) and he said I was wrong, an "old", and to check MLA. Instead, I went to the real source.

He added on the point that my texts are aggressive by ending with a period.

Daryl Zero · Post by **Daryl Zero** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:39 pm

Longhorned wrote:Two spaces after a period was necessary on typewriters with the standard courier font because of the wide space between the final letter and the period, which required an extra space on the other side to clarify the end of the sentence. Anybody who thinks you're supposed to continue that past the 1980s is the same kind of jackass who thinks you shouldn't end sentences with a preposition because it matters in Latin. Call him out.

Exactly. As I learned to type first, I did double spaces for a long while until I learned it was no longer necessary.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:50 pm

In re UofA wrote:I remember working on a group paper in college and having to remove the needless spaces on someone's pages for continuity. What a pain.

Honestly, why do people perpetuate such nonsence?

I honestly didn't even know it was an option to do one space until this thread...like I said earlier, growing up you were marked off on papers if you didn't have two spaces. I thought it was the universally accepted rule that it's always two. If someone gave me a paper that had one space..I'd go in and edit it and add two since it would look wrong and unprofessional otherwise.

the real dill · Post by **the real dill** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:01 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:
In re UofA wrote:I remember working on a group paper in college and having to remove the needless spaces on someone's pages for continuity. What a pain.

Honestly, why do people perpetuate such nonsence?
I honestly didn't even know it was an option to do one space until this thread...like I said earlier, growing up you were marked off on papers if you didn't have two spaces. I thought it was the universally accepted rule that it's always two. If someone gave me a paper that had one space..I'd go in and edit it and add two since it would look wrong and unprofessional otherwise.

So I'm not crazy? I think you're younger than I am. This is not something widely accepted until recently. I've never received single spaced emails until this guy.

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:22 pm

Dill, I misunderstood. I thought the young guy was telling you to put two spaces after every period. So I take it back. Just pull your pants up so your belt is up above your gut, and walk into his office and tell him he lacks style.

It's fine with either one or two spaces, and two spaces is what used to be taught. Telling somebody that one or the other is wrong is absurd.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:03 pm

Two spaces after a period was a typewriter thing. Oftentimes the space between a period and the two letters to either side looked almost equal since you couldn't get it right next to the last letter with how big the key had to be, so two spaces gave it a good separation.

Computers have rendered this issue moot.

I still use two spaces. The younger generations all have shit for brains, no work ethic, and can't keep a thought in their head because their music is too loud. Now get off my lawn before I correctly use a semicolon in a text message.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:55 am

The Associated Press Stylebook, aka the Bible for writers, says one space after a period, period. The bulk of my job consists of me writing formal documents, and I am required to follow the AP Stylebook and use single spacing. I would say half of my office uses double spacing. That is pretty much the only thing the supervisors let fly that does not align with the stylebook. It seems to be a generational thing; the younger people typically use single spacing (due to the emergence of computers), and the older crowd uses double spacing. I think either is fine as long as you maintain consistency throughout your writing. I personally believe the single spacing looks cleaner and requires one less keystroke. I was in full-time gifted classes until high school and took several advanced writing and English courses thereafter, and from about 5th grade on I was taught single spacing. Only one college English professor corrected my papers to use double spacing and it was a nightmare of a semester.

As for texting, that is just ridiculous. Texts are informal and I could give a rats ass about spelling or punctuation unless I am sending a text to someone who is two levels above my pay grade. And in most of those cases, you should probably be using a telephone or email to communicate with them unless they text you first. I spend so much time being anal about grammar that I just let texts, message board and social media posts, etc. fly without any caution.

threenumberones · Post by **threenumberones** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:10 am

Double space after period, yes always.

For texts. If it's client-facing (which is more and more popular these days), then yes you should punctuate. Otherwise who gives a flying fuck? Fire him if he does..no one needs nitpickers that are nitpicking on the wrong things in a work environment.

Another random one, sort of related, that is often overlooked. Slides or document bullets also need punctuation.

rgdeuce · Post by **rgdeuce** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:54 am

threenumberones wrote: Another random one, sort of related, that is often overlooked. Slides or document bullets also need punctuation.

This absolutely drives me crazy.

UAEebs86 · Post by **UAEebs86** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:17 am

threenumberones wrote:
Another random one, sort of related, that is often overlooked. Slides or document bullets also need punctuation.

Even if it's not a complete sentence? I am never sure on that one.

PieceOfMeat · Post by **PieceOfMeat** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:26 am

I'm old enough that yes, double spacing after a period was a necessity and it has carried with me throughout life into computer use.

However, as noted above, the standard has changed (the AP style book as noted, but also the MLA standard applied in most college courses is for one space https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/747/01/" target="_blank).

Though really, I don't know anyone who gives a damn about spacing after periods, unless it is their job to care (I know a couple of people who work in publishing, and editing/formatting is a part of the field).

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:32 am

This thread is just making me feel old. Turning 30 in about 8 weeks and I belong with all you old farts instead of apparently the young hip 1 space after period people.

TucsonClip · Post by **TucsonClip** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:42 pm

Double space after a period is dead in all formats, especially AP, APA and MLA. Has been for years. This coming from a guy who is a part-time journalist and wrote my thesis in the past decade.

Also, nobody uses grammar or punctuation via the interwebs (unless publishing) or text. F the man.

ASUHATER! · Post by **ASUHATER!** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:44 pm

TucsonClip wrote:Double space after a period is dead in all formats, especially AP, APA and MLA. Has been for years.

Wasn't as recently as 2009. Word processor software still automatically puts a double space. I'll double space til I die.

TucsonClip · Post by **TucsonClip** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:47 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:
TucsonClip wrote:Double space after a period is dead in all formats, especially AP, APA and MLA. Has been for years.
Wasn't as recently as 2009. Word processor software still automatically puts a double space. I'll double space til I die.

Wrote my thesis in 2008. Was dead then and so is clippy...

Post by **UAdevil** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:54 pm

ASUHATER! wrote:
TucsonClip wrote:Double space after a period is dead in all formats, especially AP, APA and MLA. Has been for years.
Wasn't as recently as 2009. Word processor software still automatically puts a double space. I'll double space til I die.

I was at UA 1998-2000 and at ASU 2001-2005. Never used the double space and was never told to. My Master's thesis did not have double spaces and was thoroughly vetted for 'format' and I heard nothing.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:54 pm

Never double-spaced. Lived to tell about it. I punctuate texts. Never occurred to me that this meant something.

EOCT · Post by **EOCT** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:11 am

gumby wrote:Never double-spaced. Lived to tell about it. I punctuate texts. Never occurred to me that this meant something.

Without a double space when can your reader take a breath? Just a tiny little rest?

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:49 am

My stuff is already too long for the modern reader. As is this post.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:09 pm

Change those periods to exclamation points for https://www.washingtonpost.com/pb/news/ ... reenreader" target="_blank

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:59 pm

Okay, let me give it a try:

kinda sucked i fell then rip ha ha like dom deluise in a small suit my date just walked in help!

azgreg · Post by **azgreg** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:07 pm

After finding that many visitors to our site look for the world's longest run-on sentence we decided to create an entry and our first step in finding the world's longest run-on sentence was to to look up the definition and found that a run-on sentence is a sentence without a punctuation marks where they should be and as a result combining what should be many sentences into one long one which we found after doing some research can be endless and has no clear cut example that we can officially call the world's longest run-on sentence and thus we do not have an answer but we must add that although this is a run-on sentence with quite a few words it is far short of run-on sentences written by people with too much time on their hand and we do not claim this to be the world's longest run-on sentence as all we are stating is that we could not officially find one.

MrBug708 · Post by **MrBug708** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:29 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_ ... yle_guides" target="_blank

During both my undergrad and graduate program, the only time I ever utilized two spaces after punctuation was when I had a professor who was hung up on paper length and not paper content. They were usually professors who once used typewriters to earn their P.h.D.'s.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:10 am

"Utilize" instead of "use" adds length, too.

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:19 am

Longhorned wrote:Okay, let me give it a try:

kinda sucked i fell then rip ha ha like dom deluise in a small suit my date just walked in help!

u poor thing do u have sewing kit carson does

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:30 am

gumby wrote:My stuff is already too long for the modern reader. As is this post.

TL;DR

wyo-cat · Post by **wyo-cat** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:09 am

What about double spacing after a colon?

Longhorned · Post by **Longhorned** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:29 am

wyo-cat wrote:What about double spacing after a colon?

Exactly the same. But let's compare using both:

------------------

This is a sentence. To a man, there's only one option: Hide in a ditch when your family calls you to dinner.

------------------

This is a sentence. To a man, there's only one option: Hide in a ditch when your family calls you to dinner.

------------------

And there, my friends, is where we discovered that even this message board software auto-corrects two spaces to one after each punctuation mark.

You've been single-spacing even if you think you been double-spacing.

MrBug708 · Post by **MrBug708** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:38 am

gumby wrote:"Utilize" instead of "use" adds length, too.

It's not your over the counter type either

Or something like that

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:31 pm

gumby · Post by **gumby** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:26 pm

I linked to that upstream

Puerco · Post by **Puerco** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:18 am

UAEebs86 wrote:
threenumberones wrote:
Another random one, sort of related, that is often overlooked. Slides or document bullets also need punctuation.
Even if it's not a complete sentence? I am never sure on that one.

Never, ever punctuate an incomplete sentence on a powerpoint slide.

Chicat · Post by **Chicat** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:01 am

gumby wrote:I linked to that upstream

Oops.

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