Lonzo Ball

Moderators: UAdevil, JMarkJohns

User avatar
Gato Salvaje
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:45 pm
Reputation: 0

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Gato Salvaje »

It's only a matter of time before UCLA becomes a Big Baller Brand School
MrBug708
Posts: 3776
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:19 pm
Reputation: 439

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by MrBug708 »

They have a long wait as the deal with UA starts on July 1st
Beachcat97
Posts: 8544
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:20 pm
Reputation: 462
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Beachcat97 »

MrBug708 wrote:They have a long wait as the deal with UA starts on July 1st
We want nothing to do with your Balls.
MrBug708
Posts: 3776
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:19 pm
Reputation: 439

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by MrBug708 »

Beachcat97 wrote:
MrBug708 wrote:They have a long wait as the deal with UA starts on July 1st
We want nothing to do with your Balls.
I'd say "wanna bet" but I'm afraid you are a little too eager
User avatar
Merkin
Posts: 41254
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:31 am
Reputation: 1346
Location: UA basketball smells like....victory

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Merkin »


User avatar
TucsonClip
Posts: 1388
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:57 pm
Reputation: 169
Location: San Diego

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by TucsonClip »

$220 for slip on sandals...
"Plus, why would I go to the NBA? Duke players suck in the pros."

-Shane Battier
User avatar
Main Event
Posts: 2756
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Reputation: 0

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Main Event »

Basically the Kobe 4's in black with a BBB logo on it.
Spaceman Spiff
Posts: 14664
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:28 am
Reputation: 1150

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Spaceman Spiff »

Merkin wrote:
Dammit, I just came here to post that. Yeah, I'm about to lay down $495 on Lonzo Ball's sneakers.

WEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
Image
User avatar
NYCat
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:26 pm
Reputation: 1
Location: Scarsdale

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by NYCat »

They're not bad for sub $80 shoes or shoes sold at Walmart, but for $500, good Lord. They also have that fake Adidas boost
User avatar
NYCat
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:26 pm
Reputation: 1
Location: Scarsdale

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by NYCat »

Lonzo Ball #2 trending topic in the US, the rest is Republicans and healthcare.
User avatar
Merkin
Posts: 41254
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:31 am
Reputation: 1346
Location: UA basketball smells like....victory

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Merkin »

Beachcat97
Posts: 8544
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:20 pm
Reputation: 462
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Beachcat97 »

They have to be called the Air Balls, right?
User avatar
CalStateTempe
Posts: 15798
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:46 pm
Reputation: 335
Location: The Right to Self-Determination: FREEDOM!!!!

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by CalStateTempe »

Lol...nice one beachy.
User avatar
ASUHATER!
Posts: 18117
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:21 pm
Reputation: 164
Location: tucson, az

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by ASUHATER! »

I cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers
i was going to put the ua/asu records here...but i forgot what they were.

i'll just go with fuck asu.
User avatar
UAEebs86
Posts: 29139
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:41 pm
Reputation: 1664
Location: Mohave Dorm Room 417 Buzz 2

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by UAEebs86 »

We are the people our parents warned us about.
-JB
2022 Survival Pool Co-Champion
User avatar
84Cat
Posts: 18849
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:17 pm
Reputation: 949
Location: Boise

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by 84Cat »

UAEebs86 wrote:
Haha, So the Ball boys will be going to UA or Notre Dame. That is truly a blast from the past.
User avatar
Merkin
Posts: 41254
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:31 am
Reputation: 1346
Location: UA basketball smells like....victory

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Merkin »

No surprise Latimore living in a weed legal state.

User avatar
rgdeuce
Posts: 4603
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:52 am
Reputation: 0
Location: Oral Valley, AZ

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by rgdeuce »

ASUHATER! wrote:I cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers
:lol: I have a closet full of Jordans I have paid anywhere from $160 to $225 (plus tax) for.
Spaceman Spiff
Posts: 14664
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:28 am
Reputation: 1150

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Spaceman Spiff »

Merkin wrote:No surprise Latimore living in a weed legal state.
Hurley is a dbag, but when he's being a dbag to qnother dbag, it's almost tolerable.
Image
User avatar
84Cat
Posts: 18849
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:17 pm
Reputation: 949
Location: Boise

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by 84Cat »

Spiff, there is no blue check mark next to Hurley's name
User avatar
prh
Posts: 2781
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:05 pm
Reputation: 152
Location: Tucson

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by prh »

Yeah that's a parody account
User avatar
Chicat
Posts: 45044
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:19 pm
Reputation: 3320
Location: Your mother's basement

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Chicat »

You mean I'm not being followed by the real Bobby Hurley???
Of the 12 coaches, Rush picked the one whose fans have the deepest passion, the longest memories, the greatest lung capacity and … did I mention deep passion?
Spaceman Spiff
Posts: 14664
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:28 am
Reputation: 1150

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Spaceman Spiff »

84Cat wrote:Spiff, there is no blue check mark next to Hurley's name
Good, then I don't even have to feel conflicted!
Image
User avatar
97cats
Posts: 3482
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:34 am
Reputation: 1035

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by 97cats »

ASUHATER! wrote:I cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers
you cant fathom? really?

you "cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers"?

what the fuck are you talking about -- sometimes the shit that you type is so retarded and out of touch.

strike that, 98% of the time the shit you type is so retarded and out of touch.

not all people shop at Payless Shoes and Buffalo Exchange, get a fucking clue.
User avatar
scumdevils86
Posts: 11526
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:34 pm
Reputation: 188
Location: t-town

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by scumdevils86 »

Calm down. People have different priorities for their money.
azcat49
Posts: 11081
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:33 pm
Reputation: 961
Location: Gilbert Az

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by azcat49 »

97cats wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:I cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers
you cant fathom? really?

you "cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers"?

what the fuck are you talking about -- sometimes the shit that you type is so retarded and out of touch.

strike that, 98% of the time the shit you type is so retarded and out of touch.

not all people shop at Payless Shoes and Buffalo Exchange, get a fucking clue.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You forgot groupon!
Waiting at the Rose Bowl patiently for the cats to arrive
"I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more wildcat sports"
2019 BDW Survivor Pool Champion
User avatar
97cats
Posts: 3482
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:34 am
Reputation: 1035

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by 97cats »

scumdevils86 wrote:People have different priorities for their money.
clearly -- PennyPincher has no problem looking down his nose at anyone who doesnt share his values.
User avatar
ASUHATER!
Posts: 18117
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:21 pm
Reputation: 164
Location: tucson, az

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by ASUHATER! »

97cats wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:I cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers
you cant fathom? really?

you "cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers"?

what the fuck are you talking about -- sometimes the shit that you type is so retarded and out of touch.

strike that, 98% of the time the shit you type is so retarded and out of touch.

not all people shop at Payless Shoes and Buffalo Exchange, get a fucking clue.
Get a fucking clue. Not everyone spends thousands on clothes. Some people aren't wasteful idiots. Your post here is the most out of touch, entitled thing I've read in ages. Some people simply don't care about having the best of the best shoes. God what a douchebag, out of touch, whiny post. F-
i was going to put the ua/asu records here...but i forgot what they were.

i'll just go with fuck asu.
User avatar
ASUHATER!
Posts: 18117
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:21 pm
Reputation: 164
Location: tucson, az

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by ASUHATER! »

97cats wrote:
scumdevils86 wrote:People have different priorities for their money.
clearly -- PennyPincher has no problem looking down his nose at anyone who doesnt share his values.
You mean you right? You're looking down your nose at people that don't spend tons on clothes. Get s clue.
i was going to put the ua/asu records here...but i forgot what they were.

i'll just go with fuck asu.
Spaceman Spiff
Posts: 14664
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:28 am
Reputation: 1150

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Spaceman Spiff »

ASUHATER! wrote:
97cats wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:I cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers
you cant fathom? really?

you "cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers"?

what the fuck are you talking about -- sometimes the shit that you type is so retarded and out of touch.

strike that, 98% of the time the shit you type is so retarded and out of touch.

not all people shop at Payless Shoes and Buffalo Exchange, get a fucking clue.
Get a fucking clue. Not everyone spends thousands on clothes. Some people aren't wasteful idiots. Your post here is the most out of touch, entitled thing I've read in ages. Some people simply don't care about having the best of the best shoes. God what a douchebag, out of touch, whiny post. F-
I do some competition in powerlifting and strongman. I'll tell you right now, if I don't shell out more than $40, I don't need to risk some halfass shoe falling apart while I'm trying to move 5-600 LB.

I get going cheaper on dress shoes, but I don't have any special needs for them either and buy cheap shoes that I burn through regularly. I might do better laying $ into something.

But look, some people like the look. Heck, I buy baseball hats and I don't necessarily need sun shade. I totally don't get this attitude that buying over $40 is bad.
Image
User avatar
ASUHATER!
Posts: 18117
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:21 pm
Reputation: 164
Location: tucson, az

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by ASUHATER! »

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:
97cats wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:I cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers
you cant fathom? really?

you "cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers"?

what the fuck are you talking about -- sometimes the shit that you type is so retarded and out of touch.

strike that, 98% of the time the shit you type is so retarded and out of touch.

not all people shop at Payless Shoes and Buffalo Exchange, get a fucking clue.
Get a fucking clue. Not everyone spends thousands on clothes. Some people aren't wasteful idiots. Your post here is the most out of touch, entitled thing I've read in ages. Some people simply don't care about having the best of the best shoes. God what a douchebag, out of touch, whiny post. F-
I do some competition in powerlifting and strongman. I'll tell you right now, if I don't shell out more than $40, I don't need to risk some halfass shoe falling apart while I'm trying to move 5-600 LB.

I get going cheaper on dress shoes, but I don't have any special needs for them either and buy cheap shoes that I burn through regularly. I might do better laying $ into something.

But look, some people like the look. Heck, I buy baseball hats and I don't necessarily need sun shade. I totally don't get this attitude that buying over $40 is bad.
I never said it's bad. Just is unfathomable and seemingly unnecessary. If it is what works for you, then awesome.
i was going to put the ua/asu records here...but i forgot what they were.

i'll just go with fuck asu.
Spaceman Spiff
Posts: 14664
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:28 am
Reputation: 1150

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Spaceman Spiff »

I mean this in a respectful way. People get mad because you take a black/white attitude towards things and are dismissive to notions you disagree with.

On the shoes, when I do a yoke walk or squat with 500+, if my shoes give a bit, I can wind up rehabbing a break or tear for a few months and worrying I'll never get back to my previous level. I'm willing to invest more to get a better make.

Work wise, I spend $40-60, but again, I'm representing an organization, and my job demands dress shoes. I don't shell out top dollar, but I know people who do, and it is more than vanity.

Finally, I grew up with friends who liked shoes. People thought it was cool to have new Jordans. I got throwback Questions in college just to have them. Look, we all spend on non-necessities. I occasionally go out to restaurants and eat things other than gruel and ramen. If you're not dirt poor and spend on some superfluous things, that's just normal. Movies, TV, internet, none of that is necessary. I assume you have internet due to your posts. It's a luxury.
Image
ChooChooCat
Posts: 8596
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:47 pm
Reputation: 1079

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by ChooChooCat »

Can most people live life solely going through the discount sections at shoes? Of course. Do most people? No. I mean $60-$80 is a more than reasonable amount of a pair of even discount basketball shoes nowadays. I'm willing to shell that money out to Nike because I know the quality is good and it isn't going to make or break me paying any of my bills. Now if the argument is nobody in the world needs to spend $500 on any pair of shoes ever then I doubt you'd find anybody with any sense of reason that would argue against you there, especially when the guy selling you it is an used car salesman and you can't guarantee the quality is even that of fricken payless. Paying more than $40 for a pair of shoes though? Yeah that's not unreasonable.
User avatar
97cats
Posts: 3482
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:34 am
Reputation: 1035

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by 97cats »

ASUHATER! wrote: Get a fucking clue. Not everyone spends thousands on clothes. Some people aren't wasteful idiots. Your post here is the most out of touch, entitled thing I've read in ages. Some people simply don't care about having the best of the best shoes. God what a douchebag, out of touch, whiny post. F-
im not whining, im telling you what an all-around moron you are.

spending more than $40 on a pair of sneakers makes me in touch, not out of it.

spending north of $40 on a pair of sneakers is not only reasonable, its norm, you're broke ass is the abnorm.

and your original position to begin with was just as always -- looking down your nose like you're above it all as smug, jealous, and dripping with judgment as ever.

so go fucking deliver another pizza in your $20 sneakers from zumiez and continue complaining and feeling sorry for yourself and your pathetic life.
BigSkyCatinMT
Posts: 568
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:57 pm
Reputation: 1

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by BigSkyCatinMT »

Before you knock the price of the shoe...consider that you get 2 shoes for the price of 1. That means you can actually wear a pair of them possibly as early as sometime in November, maybe.

That's a free $495 shoe, folks!
formerly, UA Direct, mtzwami, SnowCat, MontanaCat. should cover every forum I've been on in the last 19 years.
User avatar
NYCat
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:26 pm
Reputation: 1
Location: Scarsdale

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by NYCat »

Lavar and Lonzo sold 5K of those shoes in one day, that's at minimum $2.5 million in sales. They probably didn't cost that much to make either.
BigSkyCatinMT
Posts: 568
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:57 pm
Reputation: 1

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by BigSkyCatinMT »

NYCat wrote:Lavar and Lonzo sold 5K of those shoes in one day, that's at minimum $2.5 million in sales. They probably didn't cost that much to make either.

It has been reported that it will cost about $80,000 per shoe size to set up molds - even in China. That's $800k for the 10 sizes listed. Once collectors have gotten their shoes, unless Lonzo becomes an NBA sensation, expect the market to shrink. Material costs, labor, commercial shipping, regular shipping...risky route to ake as opposed to a guarantee.
formerly, UA Direct, mtzwami, SnowCat, MontanaCat. should cover every forum I've been on in the last 19 years.
Spaceman Spiff
Posts: 14664
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:28 am
Reputation: 1150

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Spaceman Spiff »

NYCat wrote:Lavar and Lonzo sold 5K of those shoes in one day, that's at minimum $2.5 million in sales. They probably didn't cost that much to make either.
They didn't sell that many, and I'm pretty sure none of them have been made yet.

You know who bought them? Kim Jong Un, Steve Alford and 4 dudes who are investing in future curiosities.
Image
User avatar
TucsonClip
Posts: 1388
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:57 pm
Reputation: 169
Location: San Diego

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by TucsonClip »

They are selling everything without inventory. The ship date for the shoes is the end of November. So its kinda of a no-brainer. The real question is what are the costs.
"Plus, why would I go to the NBA? Duke players suck in the pros."

-Shane Battier
User avatar
NYCat
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:26 pm
Reputation: 1
Location: Scarsdale

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by NYCat »

They probably need the pre order money to order inventory and there's no refunds/exchanges.
User avatar
Puerco
Posts: 3113
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:53 am
Reputation: 0

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Puerco »

ASUHATER! wrote:I cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers
You don't run, do you? Or play basketball or football or tennis or raquetball or squash or just about anything which requires you to actually move your feet throughout the day.
'A parent is the one person who is supposed to make their kid think they can do anything. Says they're beautiful even when they're ugly. Thinks they're smart even when they go to Arizona State.' -- Jack Donaghy
MrBug708
Posts: 3776
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:19 pm
Reputation: 439

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by MrBug708 »

If you are spending 500 on these shoes, you probably aren't worried about a refund

I hate paying more than 40, but I usually hit up the outlets and still get name brand. Except in sports, then I'll pay what I need for a good pair of shoes. My wife's parents always bought her cheap payless shoes and heels and it transferred to her, because she thought it was a waste. After foot surgery, she now has to buy 200 dollar shoes and 100 dollar flip flops so her feet don't get messed up and she'll need another surgery.

It's like buying harbor freight tools. Sure they work, but don't last long and can often make the issues worse.
Last edited by MrBug708 on Fri May 05, 2017 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
scumdevils86
Posts: 11526
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:34 pm
Reputation: 188
Location: t-town

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by scumdevils86 »

Ahh the off-season. Everyone is quite bitchy lately.
User avatar
Jefe
Posts: 4932
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:29 am
Reputation: 154

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Jefe »

ASUHATER! wrote:I cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers
Do you even garden?

Image
ASUHATER! wrote:Get a fucking clue. Not everyone spends thousands on clothes. Some people aren't wasteful idiots. Your post here is the most out of touch, entitled thing I've read in ages. Some people simply don't care about having the best of the best shoes. God what a douchebag, out of touch, whiny post. F-
Image
User avatar
ASUHATER!
Posts: 18117
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:21 pm
Reputation: 164
Location: tucson, az

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by ASUHATER! »

Jefe wrote:
ASUHATER! wrote:I cannot fathom why anyone would pay more than about $40 for a pair of sneakers
Do you even garden?

Image
ASUHATER! wrote:Get a fucking clue. Not everyone spends thousands on clothes. Some people aren't wasteful idiots. Your post here is the most out of touch, entitled thing I've read in ages. Some people simply don't care about having the best of the best shoes. God what a douchebag, out of touch, whiny post. F-
Image
Very appropriate gif for 97cats post. Good job
i was going to put the ua/asu records here...but i forgot what they were.

i'll just go with fuck asu.
User avatar
CatFanOneMil
Posts: 1086
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:54 pm
Reputation: 82

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by CatFanOneMil »

I just spent $460.00 on a pair of vintage Grado RS-1 headphones...they are old and used...so I got no complaint about how people spend their money...

However...I will be able to resell these anytime I want and probably make a profit (last pair on ebay sold for $560.00)...unless you never take these shoes out of the box and put them on the chances of returning any investment money are really quite slim...so there is not way to really claim these are "an investment" which is mostly what Lavar wants us to believe, he probably thinks that Lebron/Steph/et.al, will retire and the ball brothers will reign as the undisputed GOAT for their generation of one and dones...

But here's the difference, Lavar is banking on future potential, and I truly think he believes his own schtick, unlike Grado RS-1 original button headphones which have an undisputed reputation in studio engineer settings and audiophile listening environments...

Bottom line is some people will take the risk...and a lot of people LOVE shoes (anyone count how many pairs Alonzo Trier wore JUST this season?) the market is based on risk and reward as well as failure...they say a young man either gets wisdom or money, and usually he doesn't know what to do with either one...
User avatar
Merkin
Posts: 41254
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:31 am
Reputation: 1346
Location: UA basketball smells like....victory

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by Merkin »

User avatar
JMarkJohns
Posts: 3343
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:28 am
Reputation: 167
Location: VforVindication
Contact:

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by JMarkJohns »

I honest to God can't remember a pair of shoes I've purchased that ever cost less than $40. I'd have to really think if you even upped it to $60.

I've put hundreds in multiple pairs of dress shoes. Hundreds in two pairs of casual shoes. Hundreds in a few pair of athletic/hiking shoes. And an ungodly amount in multiple pairs of flip flops, including multiple Italian designed, including an Alligator Leather pair. Overall, I own roughly 15 pairs of shoes.

So I'm not the guy to bitch about people spending big bucks on basketball shoes.

I also am not the guy who can imagine living life with my feet clothed in dime store treads. A good pair of shoes isn't just about looks. Maybe the Alligator Flip Flops are. But many others are all about comfort. I'm on my feet almost all day. If I get shitty shoes my feet are crippled. But I did buy the Alligator Leather Flops because they tend to piss people off. Impress them, and piss them off. Which is the best.
User avatar
ASUHATER!
Posts: 18117
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:21 pm
Reputation: 164
Location: tucson, az

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by ASUHATER! »

I don't think I've ever spent more than like 60 bucks on a pair of shoes.
i was going to put the ua/asu records here...but i forgot what they were.

i'll just go with fuck asu.
catgrad97
Posts: 5661
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:06 pm
Reputation: 28

Re: Lonzo Ball

Post by catgrad97 »

OK, so how many of these shoes have actually sold so far?

Because if the above numbers are accurate, we have a culture that, just when it needs to fight the most for its independence, has instead completely given up.
Post Reply