Bear Down Wildcats

Merkin wrote:

Chicat wrote:RiseAndFail is that special kind of masochist that would rather lose 92-87 than win 65-58.

I thought R & F was Ben Lindsey???

azcat49 wrote:I am a Miller fan and want him here for years but if I could make changes I would want the following:

A coach that forces the issue on offense. An offense that focuses on getting shot attempts up more often than their opponents so we are a good offensive rebounding team and we take care of the Ball. This offense would a lot like what Roy runs st North Carolina and what he ran at Kansas. Always putting pressure on the other team to with offense. Lute I think was similar

On defense I want a team in the passing lanes. I want our defense to provide several easy lay ups a game. I want to trust our big guys low and not have a foot to the paint. I want a team of bigs that “head hunt” in the lane and “chips” any cutters going through their territory. Nastiness is required.

I'm sort of the opposite. I want Sean Miller to succeed or fail being Sean Miller. I'd rather have him establish a program in his identity vs trying to be someone he's not.

If it works, we have a natural fit. If it doesn't, we may have to part ways. I'd rather have it be his own style and coaching that he rides with, though. I have no doubt he wants to win and is tailoring decisions to that.

I agree with this Spiff. My post was more about if we made a change. Miller, like most coaches is fully confident in his system and believes if we execute, more often than not we will win.

I am good with the pack line and slower pace. It is what it is, just win baby!

azcat49 wrote:I agree with this Spiff. My post was more about if we made a change. Miller, like most coaches is fully confident in his system and believes if we execute, more often than not we will win.

I am good with the pack line and slower pace. It is what it is, just win baby!

Ah, misunderstood what you meant by changes.

I always fall towards winning. Some win fast, some win slow. Heck, I thought Shaka Smart would be killing it at Texas with Havoc and instead he might be getting canned.

Different strokes for different folks. I just want a coach who strokes it effectively.

Exactly, that is why you might not want to move so fast in firing a coach that had done pretty good. UT might wish they had Barnes back after the failed experiment of hiring Shaka. He had at least a track record of success and a guy like Luke Walton has never even coached in college. Replace Miller, no way.

RiseAndFire wrote:The Wofford coach looks good to me!

Yes, he's an attractive man, but he's married, and for the sake of your wife's dignity you should just keep sex out of the basketball thread.

Five straight sweet 16s for Gonzaga, a trip to the elite 8 and another trip to the national title game. 30 win seasons in four of the last five years (and we can only say so much about their schedule, they play better OOC and our conference hasnt been super strong). End of season top 10 ranking four of five years. Not sure we can confidently say we are "the program" of the west.

rgdeuce wrote:Five straight sweet 16s for Gonzaga, a trip to the elite 8 and another trip to the national title game. 30 win seasons in four of the last five years (and we can only say so much about their schedule, they play better OOC and our conference hasnt been super strong). End of season top 10 ranking four of five years. Not sure we can confidently say we are "the program" of the west.

The Pac-12 has had its issues, but many of Miller’s Arizona teams would have blown through Gonzaga’s conference resulting in 30 win seasons as well.

midnightx wrote:

rgdeuce wrote:Five straight sweet 16s for Gonzaga, a trip to the elite 8 and another trip to the national title game. 30 win seasons in four of the last five years (and we can only say so much about their schedule, they play better OOC and our conference hasnt been super strong). End of season top 10 ranking four of five years. Not sure we can confidently say we are "the program" of the west.

The Pac-12 has had its issues, but many of Miller’s Arizona teams would have blown through Gonzaga’s conference resulting in 30 win seasons as well.

We probably would've gone 18-0 in the WCC 2-3 times in the last 8 years.

The way Mark Few has managed his rosters over the years is beyond impressive. I am completely jealous. He has 8 players on this years team that have done a redshirt year. How is that even possible in this day and age? He also has 8 players that are Juniors or Seniors on this years team. Unbelievable!

Dave wrote:The way Mark Few has managed his rosters over the years is beyond impressive. I am completely jealous. He has 8 players on this years team that have done a redshirt year. How is that even possible in this day and age? He also has 8 players that are Juniors or Seniors on this years team. Unbelievable!

It is impressive. Credit to Few for finding a terrific system that fits a program like his. But it would never, ever work outside the WCC. There is such a great divide in that conference when it comes to Gonzaga and the rest of the programs, particularly in terms of depth. It's just not possible to handle a roster like that in a more competitive conference like the Pac 12 or any other Power 5 conference. You'd get worn down by the schedule.

Let's be honest, St. Mary's would finish at best 4-5 in the Pac 12 in their best years. BYU, probably 7 or 8. That's simply because out of 18 conference games in the Pac 12, you have to be at your best in 14 or 15 games or risk losing to a BYU caliber team. In the WCC, Gonzaga only needs to be at their best 3-4 games. The margin of error is so different.

But Few deserves a ton of credit because he has shaped his program to the circumstances. In any other conference, this Gonzaga team would've suffered 4-5 more losses and would've been deserving of a 4-7 seed and faced much stiffer competition in the first two rounds of the NCAA tourney.

If Gonzaga gets past Florida St than they are done when they meet Michigan. I really like John Beilein, dude is a awesome coach. He reminds me of Olson, probably the classiness.

Two things: Gonzaga is the current best program in the west. Oregon could make an argument for #2, regardless of what happens against UCI.

Secondly, Gonzaga’s getting to the FF this year.

I think Michigan stops them or Texas Tech. I Hate Gonzaga.

Beachcat97 wrote:Two things: Gonzaga is the current best program in the west. Oregon could make an argument for #2, regardless of what happens against UCI.

Secondly, Gonzaga’s getting to the FF this year.

Just a counterpoint, but Oregon was a hairsbreadth away from missing two consecutive ncaa tournaments. Hard to make the argument when that’s going on.

I can't stand Oregon. After Bol Bol went down it looked like Altman was finally going to have a down year. The way they are finishing out this season is beyond impressive. It has taken me years to accept this, but Altman is the best coach in our conference.

Gonzaga has definitely taken advantage of the transition CBB is/was going through (1 and done era). That's as much credit as they'll get from me.

Dave wrote: It has taken me years to accept this, but Altman is the best coach in our conference.

Agreed.

MC1983 wrote:I think Michigan stops them or Texas Tech. I Hate Gonzaga.

I don't really hate Gonzaga. Few is a good guy, does things the right way. They've had a lot of outstanding players over the years. I mean, I certainly don't root for Gonzaga, but I don't really root against them either.

Few has another great class coming in as well.

Dave wrote:I can't stand Oregon. After Bol Bol went down it looked like Altman was finally going to have a down year. The way they are finishing out this season is beyond impressive. It has taken me years to accept this, but Altman is the best coach in our conference.

That’s fair, as long as the sole determinant is Miller’s chronic failure to recruit a point guard.

Dave wrote:I can't stand Oregon. After Bol Bol went down it looked like Altman was finally going to have a down year. The way they are finishing out this season is beyond impressive. It has taken me years to accept this, but Altman is the best coach in our conference.

Team improvement over the course of a season is overrated. Much better to start out ahead with elite talent and then slowly decline into mediocrity playing a system invented in the 1920’s.

Beachcat97 wrote:

MC1983 wrote:I think Michigan stops them or Texas Tech. I Hate Gonzaga.

I don't really hate Gonzaga. Few is a good guy, does things the right way. They've had a lot of outstanding players over the years. I mean, I certainly don't root for Gonzaga, but I don't really root against them either.

I root for Gonzaga, one of my neighbors growing up grew up in Spokane and when they burst on the scene in the mid 90s I kinda picked them up as one of my other teams .

U.P. Zona Fan wrote:

Beachcat97 wrote:

MC1983 wrote:I think Michigan stops them or Texas Tech. I Hate Gonzaga.

I don't really hate Gonzaga. Few is a good guy, does things the right way. They've had a lot of outstanding players over the years. I mean, I certainly don't root for Gonzaga, but I don't really root against them either.

I root for Gonzaga, one of my neighbors growing up grew up in Spokane and when they burst on the scene in the mid 90s I kinda picked them up as one of my other teams .

Incidentally, I’m indeed rooting for them this year since I’m the only one in my pool who picked them to win it all. So for the couple weeks, go Zags!

Few’s roster management and the trust he puts in his guards...reminds me of Lute at times.

Dave wrote:The way Mark Few has managed his rosters over the years is beyond impressive. I am completely jealous. He has 8 players on this years team that have done a redshirt year. How is that even possible in this day and age? He also has 8 players that are Juniors or Seniors on this years team. Unbelievable!

Nothing to be jealous about. If Gonzaga was chalking up 30 win seasons year after year in a major conference and had a team loaded with marquee-talented juniors and seniors, then maybe. But Gonzaga's system works because the team is in a terrible conference. Many of these highly ranked Gonzaga teams would be in the middle of the pack in major conferences. If Few was in a major conference, he would not be able to manage his roster the same way.

Read a couple pages of discussion, here's my thoughts on Miller.

First, to all the haters of the zone (I'm not an advocate for it at all), the packline is very similar to matchup zone defense. I would love for him to play a straight man to man defense and would be enamored if he moved to pressure man defense. Would it give up easier baskets because our athletic more talented teams gabled wrong in the passing lanes? Of course but it would speed up the team the other way and put then in space where the natural talent and athletic advantage Arizona usually has over most teams +save for 2-6 teams depending on the year) can separate themselves. The packlinr just calls on them to stay in their 'zone'

Second, the roster turnover is abysmal for the packline Miller insists on running. Run a system that takes years to comprehend let alone master and recruit one and done caliber recruits, makes sense. You can't run a blue collar, workman system with these kind of recruits. Not even talented players like Ayton could get it.

The thing that absolutely bothers me about Miller isn't actually the any of that though (the packline or recruiting strategy can always change, you can win so many different way) it's the actual on court way he coaches.

To start it's not having a plan B because of 'do what we do' BS. How many times has the defense turn into a glorified layup line or 3pt shooting contest and there was no major adjustment to throw at the opposition. There's always going to be a team who gets hot from 3 or team/coach who figures out. This is like being a running (or triple option) team in football and being down multiple scores and the team keeps running instead of passing because of 'do what we do', it's insanity.

But probably the thing that bothers me most is his bad time put management. Him taking timeouts and not letting his teams battle through adversity is terrible. They never learn how to do it themselves, no wonder our teams get lost and fall apart badly when things go bad. PJC thinking it was over at Buffalo at halftime is one glaring example. What Miller does here is like helicopter/snowplow parenting. No wonder our teams our soft and can't handle the adversity and can't find a second gear. I'm not saying he should go as extreme as Roy Williams who never calls timeouts when his team is getting smacked, but clearly it's built his teams up for winning. Because they've had to do it themselves because ole Roy let's them play through struggles and learn. On court experience, who knew.

Excellent post, NYC.

A decade into the Miller era, we’re now in a good position to do this kind of longview assessment of his style and shortcomings.

The TO thing is definitely an issue, as is the “do what we do” philosophy. I’m just not sure Miller has it in him to evolve in the ways we’d like to see. If it hasn’t happened at the 10
year mark, not sure it’s going to.

You’re either down to stick with this coach and this system and hope that that breakthrough season finally arrives, or you’re thinking an amicable divorce makes more sense.

Lute change during his time at UA. Coaches can change over time. We will see if it happens with Miller

Miller did say he wanted to change up his style a bit going into this past season, but with all the shit that went down it made it tough. If he's genuine in making a change in style the guys coming in allow it to happen.

NYCat wrote:Read a couple pages of discussion, here's my thoughts on Miller.

First, to all the haters of the zone (I'm not an advocate for it at all), the packline is very similar to matchup zone defense. I would love for him to play a straight man to man defense and would be enamored if he moved to pressure man defense. Would it give up easier baskets because our athletic more talented teams gabled wrong in the passing lanes? Of course but it would speed up the team the other way and put then in space where the natural talent and athletic advantage Arizona usually has over most teams +save for 2-6 teams depending on the year) can separate themselves. The packlinr just calls on them to stay in their 'zone'

Second, the roster turnover is abysmal for the packline Miller insists on running. Run a system that takes years to comprehend let alone master and recruit one and done caliber recruits, makes sense. You can't run a blue collar, workman system with these kind of recruits. Not even talented players like Ayton could get it.

The thing that absolutely bothers me about Miller isn't actually the any of that though (the packline or recruiting strategy can always change, you can win so many different way) it's the actual on court way he coaches.

To start it's not having a plan B because of 'do what we do' BS. How many times has the defense turn into a glorified layup line or 3pt shooting contest and there was no major adjustment to throw at the opposition. There's always going to be a team who gets hot from 3 or team/coach who figures out. This is like being a running (or triple option) team in football and being down multiple scores and the team keeps running instead of passing because of 'do what we do', it's insanity.

But probably the thing that bothers me most is his bad time put management. Him taking timeouts and not letting his teams battle through adversity is terrible. They never learn how to do it themselves, no wonder our teams get lost and fall apart badly when things go bad. PJC thinking it was over at Buffalo at halftime is one glaring example. What Miller does here is like helicopter/snowplow parenting. No wonder our teams our soft and can't handle the adversity and can't find a second gear. I'm not saying he should go as extreme as Roy Williams who never calls timeouts when his team is getting smacked, but clearly it's built his teams up for winning. Because they've had to do it themselves because ole Roy let's them play through struggles and learn. On court experience, who knew.

Great post man. Agree with all of it. I'd add that there is a consistent theme here. Miller created a system that is a reflection of him and his time at Xavier for that matter. The system is outstanding at getting the most out of the classic hardnosed overachiever that would run through walls for the coach. When coming to Arizona he applied these principles to his suddenly top notch talent pool and unsurprisingly, there have been struggles. It goes beyond Xs and Os too - to how the locker room is managed and other intangibles. It's a square peg in a round hole. Sean needs more McConnels, less Aytons. It's who he is as a coach and I accept that.

Of course there are exceptions...some 5* talents will adapt and conform. Most wont and the result is either lack of development or transfer.

NYCat wrote:Read a couple pages of discussion, here's my thoughts on Miller.

First, to all the haters of the zone (I'm not an advocate for it at all), the packline is very similar to matchup zone defense. I would love for him to play a straight man to man defense and would be enamored if he moved to pressure man defense. Would it give up easier baskets because our athletic more talented teams gabled wrong in the passing lanes? Of course but it would speed up the team the other way and put then in space where the natural talent and athletic advantage Arizona usually has over most teams +save for 2-6 teams depending on the year) can separate themselves. The packlinr just calls on them to stay in their 'zone'

Second, the roster turnover is abysmal for the packline Miller insists on running. Run a system that takes years to comprehend let alone master and recruit one and done caliber recruits, makes sense. You can't run a blue collar, workman system with these kind of recruits. Not even talented players like Ayton could get it.

The thing that absolutely bothers me about Miller isn't actually the any of that though (the packline or recruiting strategy can always change, you can win so many different way) it's the actual on court way he coaches.

To start it's not having a plan B because of 'do what we do' BS. How many times has the defense turn into a glorified layup line or 3pt shooting contest and there was no major adjustment to throw at the opposition. There's always going to be a team who gets hot from 3 or team/coach who figures out. This is like being a running (or triple option) team in football and being down multiple scores and the team keeps running instead of passing because of 'do what we do', it's insanity.

But probably the thing that bothers me most is his bad time put management. Him taking timeouts and not letting his teams battle through adversity is terrible. They never learn how to do it themselves, no wonder our teams get lost and fall apart badly when things go bad. PJC thinking it was over at Buffalo at halftime is one glaring example. What Miller does here is like helicopter/snowplow parenting. No wonder our teams our soft and can't handle the adversity and can't find a second gear. I'm not saying he should go as extreme as Roy Williams who never calls timeouts when his team is getting smacked, but clearly it's built his teams up for winning. Because they've had to do it themselves because ole Roy let's them play through struggles and learn. On court experience, who knew.

When you've won 5 conference titles in 10 seasons, reached 3 Elite Eights and two more Sweet 16s, I think it's a fair assessment that Miller knows how to coach, how to adjust, etc... To be a really good team you need three things: a point guard to create offense and get good shots for teammates, shooters who can knock down open looks, and rim protection. That's it. If you're better than your opponent in these areas, you've got a superior team and you'll win a lot of games. The glaring weakness for Miller of late has been the point guard, which contributes to the other important areas in consistently getting good shots and having good defense on the point of attack which contributes to rim protection.

zonagrad wrote:

NYCat wrote:Read a couple pages of discussion, here's my thoughts on Miller.

First, to all the haters of the zone (I'm not an advocate for it at all), the packline is very similar to matchup zone defense. I would love for him to play a straight man to man defense and would be enamored if he moved to pressure man defense. Would it give up easier baskets because our athletic more talented teams gabled wrong in the passing lanes? Of course but it would speed up the team the other way and put then in space where the natural talent and athletic advantage Arizona usually has over most teams +save for 2-6 teams depending on the year) can separate themselves. The packlinr just calls on them to stay in their 'zone'

Second, the roster turnover is abysmal for the packline Miller insists on running. Run a system that takes years to comprehend let alone master and recruit one and done caliber recruits, makes sense. You can't run a blue collar, workman system with these kind of recruits. Not even talented players like Ayton could get it.

The thing that absolutely bothers me about Miller isn't actually the any of that though (the packline or recruiting strategy can always change, you can win so many different way) it's the actual on court way he coaches.

To start it's not having a plan B because of 'do what we do' BS. How many times has the defense turn into a glorified layup line or 3pt shooting contest and there was no major adjustment to throw at the opposition. There's always going to be a team who gets hot from 3 or team/coach who figures out. This is like being a running (or triple option) team in football and being down multiple scores and the team keeps running instead of passing because of 'do what we do', it's insanity.

But probably the thing that bothers me most is his bad time put management. Him taking timeouts and not letting his teams battle through adversity is terrible. They never learn how to do it themselves, no wonder our teams get lost and fall apart badly when things go bad. PJC thinking it was over at Buffalo at halftime is one glaring example. What Miller does here is like helicopter/snowplow parenting. No wonder our teams our soft and can't handle the adversity and can't find a second gear. I'm not saying he should go as extreme as Roy Williams who never calls timeouts when his team is getting smacked, but clearly it's built his teams up for winning. Because they've had to do it themselves because ole Roy let's them play through struggles and learn. On court experience, who knew.

When you've won 5 conference titles in 10 seasons, reached 3 Elite Eights and two more Sweet 16s, I think it's a fair assessment that Miller knows how to coach, how to adjust, etc... To be a really good team you need three things: a point guard to create offense and get good shots for teammates, shooters who can knock down open looks, and rim protection. That's it. If you're better than your opponent in these areas, you've got a superior team and you'll win a lot of games. The glaring weakness for Miller of late has been the point guard, which contributes to the other important areas in consistently getting good shots and having good defense on the point of attack which contributes to rim protection.

The point guard woes have been somewhat of a surprise to say the least. Turner by most accounts was supposed to be a home run, recruited and coveted by other elite programs. He was one of the biggest busts at point guard in program history, particularly based on his hype coming in. That sent the program back, but McConnell fortunately come to the rescue. Then there was the mismanagement with the Dorsey recruitment, the miss on Thornton, and the bizarre commitment to PJC. With Miller's background as a point guard and with Arizona's legacy as Point Guard U, it is surprising Miller had such gaping holes in the point guard position.

NYCat wrote:Read a couple pages of discussion, here's my thoughts on Miller.

First, to all the haters of the zone (I'm not an advocate for it at all), the packline is very similar to matchup zone defense. I would love for him to play a straight man to man defense and would be enamored if he moved to pressure man defense. Would it give up easier baskets because our athletic more talented teams gabled wrong in the passing lanes? Of course but it would speed up the team the other way and put then in space where the natural talent and athletic advantage Arizona usually has over most teams +save for 2-6 teams depending on the year) can separate themselves. The packlinr just calls on them to stay in their 'zone'

Second, the roster turnover is abysmal for the packline Miller insists on running. Run a system that takes years to comprehend let alone master and recruit one and done caliber recruits, makes sense. You can't run a blue collar, workman system with these kind of recruits. Not even talented players like Ayton could get it.

The thing that absolutely bothers me about Miller isn't actually the any of that though (the packline or recruiting strategy can always change, you can win so many different way) it's the actual on court way he coaches.

To start it's not having a plan B because of 'do what we do' BS. How many times has the defense turn into a glorified layup line or 3pt shooting contest and there was no major adjustment to throw at the opposition. There's always going to be a team who gets hot from 3 or team/coach who figures out. This is like being a running (or triple option) team in football and being down multiple scores and the team keeps running instead of passing because of 'do what we do', it's insanity.

But probably the thing that bothers me most is his bad time put management. Him taking timeouts and not letting his teams battle through adversity is terrible. They never learn how to do it themselves, no wonder our teams get lost and fall apart badly when things go bad. PJC thinking it was over at Buffalo at halftime is one glaring example. What Miller does here is like helicopter/snowplow parenting. No wonder our teams our soft and can't handle the adversity and can't find a second gear. I'm not saying he should go as extreme as Roy Williams who never calls timeouts when his team is getting smacked, but clearly it's built his teams up for winning. Because they've had to do it themselves because ole Roy let's them play through struggles and learn. On court experience, who knew.

My thoughts:

I agree completely on zone/packline. Packline is as close to zone as you get in man. I never understand people who dislike packline but want zone.

It's a fair point on roster turnover. I'm tempted to say some of that is just modern CBB, but at a minimum, Miller hasn't distinguished himself from the norm with exceptional roster stability.

I'm not as 100% packline is that difficult to learn. Guys like Ayton have had issues on all levels with D. I have high hopes that 2019's class has high motor/IQ guys that will remind us of our best defensive teams.

Miller does actually change D, IMO. He has regularly pressed or ratcheted pressure up when we're down and need to create turnovers. I have a different take here because some of the scenarios you list, there just isn't a strategic answer. For instance, an opponent gets white hot from 3. Packline is usually one of the best D's for defending the 3. Zone isn't better. Crank up pressure and they may blitz us if they don't turn it over.

On timeouts, it's philosophical. I'm hesitant to criticize because there are HOF coaches who handle it both ways. For every Roy or Phil Jackson, there's a coach who calls TO's to stop an opponent's run who has a natty.

Completely agree.

Coaching in college comes down to three things in order:

1. Talent/roster
2. Motivation
3. Tactics/ x's and o's

The teams with the best players win most of the time. Clearly not all of the time, but to me there are only a handful of difference makers in that category. I have plenty of aesthetic issues with Sean's Arizona teams, but you can win playing any style in college.

Where Sean is falling short is in roster management and culture. The best coaches identify talent that fit their scheme, have a multi year plan for their development and a culture to nurture that talent. The best of the best do this - Jay Wright, John Beilein, Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, Tony Bennett, Cal. Each of these guys have a strong culture - you see continuity year to year in the kinds of players they bring in, the systems they run and the ebbs and flows of a season. Sure, off years happen and sometimes players leave earlier than you think. Miller seems to have the same philosophy as Cal and K re: talent: get the best of the best, the cream will rise to the top. But both K and Cal are very charismatic guys who wield a lot of power in the CBB culture who make up for a lot with skill #2 above. Their teams don't always fit together, but the way a guy like Cal communicates and gets buy in means his teams usually have a great cohesion in March.

In Miller's case, we had crazy talent last year, but two 7 footers clogging the paint, a super skilled ISO player who needs the ball, a PG who couldn't defend at the point of attack.. it was a talented team that just didn't fit together. We have these waves of talented players that don't exactly fit followed by these strangely assembled teams with grad transfers and scrap heap guys. I thought back in his first few years I could identify an Arizona type under Sean: tough, defensive minded, guard oriented, plays with an edge. Momo, Kevin Parrom, Mark Lyons, Nick Johnson, hell even Jordan Mayes then a few defensive/rim running bigs.

NYCat wrote:Read a couple pages of discussion, here's my thoughts on Miller.

First, to all the haters of the zone (I'm not an advocate for it at all), the packline is very similar to matchup zone defense. I would love for him to play a straight man to man defense and would be enamored if he moved to pressure man defense. Would it give up easier baskets because our athletic more talented teams gabled wrong in the passing lanes? Of course but it would speed up the team the other way and put then in space where the natural talent and athletic advantage Arizona usually has over most teams +save for 2-6 teams depending on the year) can separate themselves. The packlinr just calls on them to stay in their 'zone'

Second, the roster turnover is abysmal for the packline Miller insists on running. Run a system that takes years to comprehend let alone master and recruit one and done caliber recruits, makes sense. You can't run a blue collar, workman system with these kind of recruits. Not even talented players like Ayton could get it.

The thing that absolutely bothers me about Miller isn't actually the any of that though (the packline or recruiting strategy can always change, you can win so many different way) it's the actual on court way he coaches.

To start it's not having a plan B because of 'do what we do' BS. How many times has the defense turn into a glorified layup line or 3pt shooting contest and there was no major adjustment to throw at the opposition. There's always going to be a team who gets hot from 3 or team/coach who figures out. This is like being a running (or triple option) team in football and being down multiple scores and the team keeps running instead of passing because of 'do what we do', it's insanity.

But probably the thing that bothers me most is his bad time put management. Him taking timeouts and not letting his teams battle through adversity is terrible. They never learn how to do it themselves, no wonder our teams get lost and fall apart badly when things go bad. PJC thinking it was over at Buffalo at halftime is one glaring example. What Miller does here is like helicopter/snowplow parenting. No wonder our teams our soft and can't handle the adversity and can't find a second gear. I'm not saying he should go as extreme as Roy Williams who never calls timeouts when his team is getting smacked, but clearly it's built his teams up for winning. Because they've had to do it themselves because ole Roy let's them play through struggles and learn. On court experience, who knew.

Which would you rather be, a 9 loss team with a natty or a 3 loss team out in the second round?

U.P. Zona Fan wrote:

NYCat wrote:Read a couple pages of discussion, here's my thoughts on Miller.

First, to all the haters of the zone (I'm not an advocate for it at all), the packline is very similar to matchup zone defense. I would love for him to play a straight man to man defense and would be enamored if he moved to pressure man defense. Would it give up easier baskets because our athletic more talented teams gabled wrong in the passing lanes? Of course but it would speed up the team the other way and put then in space where the natural talent and athletic advantage Arizona usually has over most teams +save for 2-6 teams depending on the year) can separate themselves. The packlinr just calls on them to stay in their 'zone'

Second, the roster turnover is abysmal for the packline Miller insists on running. Run a system that takes years to comprehend let alone master and recruit one and done caliber recruits, makes sense. You can't run a blue collar, workman system with these kind of recruits. Not even talented players like Ayton could get it.

The thing that absolutely bothers me about Miller isn't actually the any of that though (the packline or recruiting strategy can always change, you can win so many different way) it's the actual on court way he coaches.

To start it's not having a plan B because of 'do what we do' BS. How many times has the defense turn into a glorified layup line or 3pt shooting contest and there was no major adjustment to throw at the opposition. There's always going to be a team who gets hot from 3 or team/coach who figures out. This is like being a running (or triple option) team in football and being down multiple scores and the team keeps running instead of passing because of 'do what we do', it's insanity.

But probably the thing that bothers me most is his bad time put management. Him taking timeouts and not letting his teams battle through adversity is terrible. They never learn how to do it themselves, no wonder our teams get lost and fall apart badly when things go bad. PJC thinking it was over at Buffalo at halftime is one glaring example. What Miller does here is like helicopter/snowplow parenting. No wonder our teams our soft and can't handle the adversity and can't find a second gear. I'm not saying he should go as extreme as Roy Williams who never calls timeouts when his team is getting smacked, but clearly it's built his teams up for winning. Because they've had to do it themselves because ole Roy let's them play through struggles and learn. On court experience, who knew.

Which would you rather be, a 9 loss team with a natty or a 3 loss team out in the second round?

Which would you rather be on Selection Sunday?

pc in NM wrote:Which would you rather be on Selection Sunday?

The 9 win team that won the championship the year before.

I thought the forum being down was a sure thing Miller got fired. Not so?

azgreg wrote:I thought the forum being down was a sure thing Miller got fired. Not so?

Not so. He was fired yesterday but we've all forgotten about it by now, and who cares?

Longhorned wrote:

azgreg wrote:I thought the forum being down was a sure thing Miller got fired. Not so?

Not so. He was fired yesterday but we've all forgotten about it by now, and who cares?

Tim Floyd the new guy?

I was watching the UNC Washington game last week. The color guy said that WA was hurting itself because it only had one defensive plan.
Said quality teams will figure out your D and once they can beat it, you need another option.
Need to be able to give a different look on D to make O come up with a new attack.
I felt like he could have been talking about AZ instead of WA.

However, in the Utah game (I think) when CSM put in all of the scrubs, those guys played zone for the few minutes they were on the floor, and they got the score closer. So these guys must run it in practice as scout team.
This tells me that CSM does have a zone in his playbook but that he can’t bring himself to use it for any length of time.
This was a perfect season to try some stuff like a zone for an extended look.
Not for the players, but for the coach.
Also, I am NOT a zone proponent but I’m in favor of being able to adjust during a game.

Postmaster wrote:I was watching the UNC Washington game last week. The color guy said that WA was hurting itself because it only had one defensive plan.
Said quality teams will figure out your D and once they can beat it, you need another option.
Need to be able to give a different look on D to make O come up with a new attack.
I felt like he could have been talking about AZ instead of WA.

However, in the Utah game (I think) when CSM put in all of the scrubs, those guys played zone for the few minutes they were on the floor, and they got the score closer. So these guys must run it in practice as scout team.
This tells me that CSM does have a zone in his playbook but that he can’t bring himself to use it for any length of time.
This was a perfect season to try some stuff like a zone for an extended look.
Not for the players, but for the coach.
Also, I am NOT a zone proponent but I’m in favor of being able to adjust during a game.

Miller practices against the zone ALL THE TIME...he knows they will see it and I have heard him say they get ot more than any other team...

But zone defense is basically admitting you do not have the talent (or time to teach your talent) how to play defense...this is why teams go to it when they are in foul trouble...its a last ditch effort to save a game you are losing...NO team that does not play zone all the time plays it when they are winning...

For those who bitch about Miller emphasizing defense and not offense, Gonzaga sure left the shooters open in the last 5 minutes. Josh Perkins barely made an effort to get over a screen and his man had a wide open 3. Then Mark Few went to a ZONE and it took Tech one pass to get another wide open 3.

The pack line as I understand it has philosophies of a match up zone with a foot to the key and the rotations on help side defense. If it’s done right we are playing a bit of zone when we need to

azcat49 wrote:The pack lineas I understand it has philosophies of a match up zone with a foot to the key and the rotations on help side defense. If it’s done right we are playing a bit of zone when we need to

Dick and Tony Bennett agree...

Sean Miller doesn’t have to worry about Chris beard or Tony Bennett anymore competing with him for best coaches to never make a final four

Chris Beard just made the Final Four with two top-100 players in his rotation and one of them is a transfer.

Chris Beard being a great coach doesn’t make Sean Miller a bad coach.
Tony Bennett lost to a 16 seed. And the game wasn’t even close. He’s in the Final Four because Purdue couldn’t get a rebound on a missed FT and they got a miracle to go their way. That isn’t great coaching, that’s great luck. Tony Bennett’s coaching didn’t make that shot go down any more than Sean Miller’s coaching made Jamelle Horne miss a wide open 3. Or TJ McConnell miss a jumper at the elbow. Or Nick ZJohnson getting called for an offensive foul. It takes a bit of luck to reach the Final Four. Sometimes that luck is bad luck. Just look at the finishes of Duke’s last two games.

loomer wrote:Chris Beard just made the Final Four with two top-100 players in his rotation and one of them is a transfer.

Chris beard is gonna kill it at UCLA

Miller isn’t a bad coach. If he certainly isn’t a creative or adaptive in game coach.

That’s what is going to keep him from being where we all want him to be.