It's the coach, not the players!

[PieceOfMeat]

Just a thread so people can discuss how it's not the players, it's the coach's fault.

Feel different? Post here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5073" target="_blank

Agree? Post below.

[JW_in_Boston]

If we blame our underperformances in the tourney on the players, then that is still the coaches fault for bringing in those players! It all circles back to Miller IMHO. When a whole slew of different players have looked horrible and are out classed by far inferior talent both on the court and coaching multiple times I don't see any other explanation. They've looked lost and without direction at least 3 times now with a different cast, how could they be on anyone except miller?

I think we need to seriously consider if miller is an underachieving coach that will never get us there, a better than expected rebound coach. It's on the table, but if we part ways the next coach is critical or we become the next NC state etc who used to be relevant and whose fans have an unreasonable expectation that were still a player. Do we become that program that elevates or are we just a school that was great under lute. I honestly don't know if miller can ever get to lutes level but I also have no idea if we could recruit a replacement who can do better. Either realization is sad and sobering.

[Olsondogg]

Emotional reactions from fans that were rallying around the same guy 24 hours prior that were “ride or die” are hilariously hypocritical.

“Fire miller and get a winner”. Lol

KO. Russ Pennnel. Mike Dunlap. Tim Floyd. Reggie Theus.

That’s where we were at the last time. Spare me the “we are Arizona” shit. The program, town and school always look better through a fans eyes. Blame miller all you want, and deservedly so. But be careful what you wish for.

The guy has been 2 shots away from the coveted final 4, and has delivered on everything else aside. Suddenly he can’t coach.

Fanatics.

Well put.

[ChooChooCat]

Emotional reactions from fans that were rallying around the same guy 24 hours prior that were “ride or die” are hilariously hypocritical.

“Fire miller and get a winner”. Lol

KO. Russ Pennnel. Mike Dunlap. Tim Floyd. Reggie Theus.

That’s where we were at the last time. Spare me the “we are Arizona” shit. The program, town and school always look better through a fans eyes. Blame miller all you want, and deservedly so. But be careful what you wish for.

We were a Billy Gillispie being absolutely worthless away from having John Calipari as our coach last time. I'm not sure what was the point of bringing up KO, Pennell, and Dunlap seeing as they were never going to be hired for the long term or Reggie Theus who was never even considered for the job. I mean you win Tim Floyd, but that was Livengood being worthless and nothing more, much like Heeke tried to hire Ken Niumatalolo until he got outranked.

We're still the top Nike job in this entire region in a conference that's far from difficult to topple. I mean we won't get the coach from Xavier this time around , but worthwhile coaches will still want and apply for this job.

[Olsondogg]

Good counter post, Choo. Did you write it in September?

[ChooChooCat]

Good counter post, Choo. Did you write it in September?

Yes, I had it copied this entire time and was just waiting to hit control V at the perfect opportunity and you delivered that time my friend.

Lol in all seriousness since the FBI stuff came down I've been an advocate (with the thought Miller would be gone after this season) that the real Miller replacement is two coaches away regardless. We can hire an Eric Musselman or whatever for 4 years, if they somehow succeed, well awesome, if not then by the time that coach's tenure ends the FBI crap will be in the rearview and we once again are still the top Nike basketball program on the west in a conference that won't get any better because it'll still be run by Captain Hairplugs and we can lure a really good coach that we really want.

[Olsondogg]

Cool cause what coach worth anything wants to step into the fbi mess?

Cause yeah that, coupled with the looming NCAA action is super attractive.

Oh wait. It’s not this hire that matters. It’s the next or the next.

[ChooChooCat]

Cool cause what coach worth anything wants to step into the fbi mess?

Cause yeah that, coupled with the looming NCAA action is super attractive.

Oh wait. It’s not this hire that matters. It’s the next or the next.

I edited my original post and yes it's not this hire that matters quite frankly unless we just luck out somehow and end up with a Dana Altman type.

I mean it's either that or we let Sean Miller attempt to fix this mess with the FBI stuff looming over his head and an ESPN accusation that can't be disproved maybe ever that you bet your sweet ass every school will use to recruit against us for the remainder of Miller's tenure here. Your call AD ODogg.

I'm not anti-Miller, I'm just anti relationships that go toxic. Maybe you've been blessed to never be in a toxic relationship in your life, but I've been in one, it's not good for either party ever.

[Olsondogg]

Cool cause what coach worth anything wants to step into the fbi mess?

Cause yeah that, coupled with the looming NCAA action is super attractive.

Oh wait. It’s not this hire that matters. It’s the next or the next.

I edited my original post and yes it's not this hire that matters quite frankly unless we just luck out somehow and end up with a Dana Altman type.

I mean it's either that or we let Sean Miller attempt to fix this mess with the FBI stuff looming over his head and an ESPN accusation that can't be disproved maybe ever. Your call AD ODogg.

Not an AD. But I don’t see a good recourse for Arizona. I think you let miller either prove his worth for next 1-2 years until either cloud clears or the hammer comes down, or you get a temporary sub coach that you wouldn’t want when times are good.

[ChooChooCat]

Cool cause what coach worth anything wants to step into the fbi mess?

Cause yeah that, coupled with the looming NCAA action is super attractive.

Oh wait. It’s not this hire that matters. It’s the next or the next.

I edited my original post and yes it's not this hire that matters quite frankly unless we just luck out somehow and end up with a Dana Altman type.

I mean it's either that or we let Sean Miller attempt to fix this mess with the FBI stuff looming over his head and an ESPN accusation that can't be disproved maybe ever. Your call AD ODogg.

Not an AD. But I don’t see a good recourse for Arizona. I think you let miller either prove his worth for next 1-2 years until either cloud clears or the hammer comes down, or you get a temporary sub coach that you wouldn’t want when times are good.

Yeah that's it and it's a tough call and one that'll be made above AD ODogg and Heeke's head for that matter. I just think that Sean Miller and Arizona Head Coach put together has been tarnished for multiple reasons. It's tough, but at least you can hire another guy and his name hasn't been tarred and feathered while being associated as Arizona's head coach, whether he's temporary or not (his results will determine as much).

[Olsondogg]

If you wanna name call going forward that’s cool...I really don’t care. To do so is so 2018.

It will be interesting to see what happens for sure.

[ChooChooCat]

If you wanna name call going forward that’s cool...I really don’t care. To do so is so 2018.

It will be interesting to see what happens for sure.

I'm not calling you names, relax. I'm just implying what you'd do if you were in charge, which I don't even necessarily disagree with. It's a tough call and it's one that's going to come from 1. Robbins & 2. Big Boosters. I'm a big ODogg fan, I'm just ribbing ya buddy.

On the booster note it'll be real interesting to see how they feel about a 20 point loss to a 13 seed. They backed Miller completely during the ESPN garbage. Did yesterday change their mind?

[Olsondogg]

If you wanna name call going forward that’s cool...I really don’t care. To do so is so 2018.

It will be interesting to see what happens for sure.

I'm not calling you names, relax. I'm just implying what you'd do if you were in charge, which I don't even necessarily disagree with. It's a tough call and it's one that's going to come from 1. Robbins & 2. Big Boosters. I'm a big ODogg fan, I'm just ribbing ya buddy.

On the booster note it'll be real interesting to see how they feel about a 20 point loss to a 13 seed. They backed Miller completely during the ESPN garbage. Did yesterday change their mind?

It’s all good.

I wonder the same thing. That would be the only “public” reason to fire him now imo. The last 3 exits.

I just think that unless it’s a “parting of ways” that’s “mutual” the view of an AD and school suddenly pulling support is a red flag for future hires.

The more important job to consider is the commmish. Presidents should be meeting about that. The pac as a whole is a dumpster fire, and outside of the Altman fluke last year, the pac won’t be considered a major conference imo.

[pokinmik]

I’m as optimistic as anyone and always have been...but this is dark right now.

There has to be so much going on behind the scenes w Miller and this situation, stuff we aren’t fully privy too, I’d be foolish to even act like I can provide an opinion about what the school/Miller should do.

Time to sit back and take a break and see what happens.

[JW_in_Boston]

If you (re)read my post I don't think we're really that far off. I don't think firing miller would do anything positive unless we already knew we had a great hire in waiting. We could do much worse than Romar, but I'd much rather roll the dice with miller the next 2-3 years and see if he repays our loyalty and having his back. I just honestly don't know if miller will ever get us to be the perennial top 25 team that makes a legit NC run every 5-8 years since we haven't gotten to a FF in 9 years.

Lute already had 2 FFs before his bad stretch of 1st round exits, and snuck another in in 94 between them. Miller hasn't made an FF at all, and until he does he can't point to anything concrete as to why we should trust he'll get us there. Or any other program.

I think this is as existential a crisis for him as for us. If he can only win with good guards and not the best 7 footer prospect in 25 years, then he better always have good guards. Even lute had some down years there (the Ruben Douglas year comes to mind), so this might be that. But it might be miller and az not being a good fit even if both are good on their own merits. Or miller might be a good mid major coach. All are on the table and equally likely IMHO. Anyone 100% certain is wrong.

[Olsondogg]

I will say this. Watching Robbins interact with the miller family at the Cal game coupled with seeing him interact with the fan base and the feeling in Vegas less than a week ago, I’d be surprised if he was on board to terminate now.

Unless an exit plan was agreed upon when Miller came back, but from what I’ve heard is miller was looking at coming back.

Hopefully next year is boring.

[ChooChooCat]

If you wanna name call going forward that’s cool...I really don’t care. To do so is so 2018.

It will be interesting to see what happens for sure.

I'm not calling you names, relax. I'm just implying what you'd do if you were in charge, which I don't even necessarily disagree with. It's a tough call and it's one that's going to come from 1. Robbins & 2. Big Boosters. I'm a big ODogg fan, I'm just ribbing ya buddy.

On the booster note it'll be real interesting to see how they feel about a 20 point loss to a 13 seed. They backed Miller completely during the ESPN garbage. Did yesterday change their mind?

It’s all good.

I wonder the same thing. That would be the only “public” reason to fire him now imo. The last 3 exits.

I just think that unless it’s a “parting of ways” that’s “mutual” the view of an AD and school suddenly pulling support is a red flag for future hires.

The more important job to consider is the commmish. Presidents should be meeting about that. The pac as a whole is a dumpster fire, and outside of the Altman fluke last year, the pac won’t be considered a major conference imo.

Ideally you'd want it to be a mutual parting of ways and that's likely on the table. Either way the AD can claim it's the results mixed with the FBI mess, but I agree it's a difficult play with a slippery slope if it's not a mutual parting of the ways.

As long as we have the LA schools we'll always remain a major conference. Now, a respected major conference well.....

I'm quite frankly dumbfounded why the conference sticks by Scott, every thing he's done outside of moving the basketball conference tourney to Vegas has been a colossal failure.

[ChooChooCat]

I think this is as existential a crisis for him as for us. If he can only win with good guards and not the best 7 footer prospect in 25 years, then he better always have good guards. Even lute had some down years there (the Ruben Douglas year comes to mind), so this might be that. But it might be miller and az not being a good fit even if both are good on their own merits. Or miller might be a good mid major coach. All are on the table and equally likely IMHO. Anyone 100% certain is wrong.

Hell the Ruben Douglas year (love that guy btw) was only a down year by contrast because Olson had like 6 freshmen on that team that got a lot of minutes. Olson was certainly used to having much more upperclassmen so it was a transitional year for us. This is a whole different can of worms in a whole different type of environment.

[PHXCATS]

Yesterday was on both. That is clear. Sucks but is what it is. Bear Down for 2019. Ride or die with Miller as long as he is here and the players that want to be and stay here. Hope Miller is the coach next season.

[TatetheGreat]

Miller just seems like a defeated man. It would be in everyone's best interest if he resigned and coached elsewhere after some time off. I really can't imagine slogging through sanctions with him when patience is already wearing thin. The job will be equally undesirable if we wait to fire Miller after multiple losing seasons coupled with waning fan support. I think we have to rip the bandage off and hire someone who checks the right boxes, à la Matt Brase. I think the freshmen will stay if we make the right hire.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Call me crazy, but I don't see a real chance Arizona can go all in on Miller three weeks ago at the height of the ESPN story and now fire him. We'd spend months getting publicly torched for placing W's in the tourney above allegations of paying players. That press conference bound us as much as Miller.

If he wants a mutual separation, maybe, but I don't know how we could can him at this point. And I think last night was either the most ugly, embarassing loss in Arizona history or definitely top 5.

[Harvey Specter]

Emotional reactions from fans that were rallying around the same guy 24 hours prior that were “ride or die” are hilariously hypocritical.

“Fire miller and get a winner”. Lol

KO. Russ Pennnel. Mike Dunlap. Tim Floyd. Reggie Theus.

That’s where we were at the last time. Spare me the “we are Arizona” shit. The program, town and school always look better through a fans eyes. Blame miller all you want, and deservedly so. But be careful what you wish for.

The guy has been 2 shots away from the coveted final 4, and has delivered on everything else aside. Suddenly he can’t coach.

Fanatics.

Well put.

Wholeheartedly agree with all of this. ^^^

I am truthfully more confused and stunned than anything else related to last night's performance.

I am 100% behind Miller... and that does not mean I think he is accountable for last night. It means I have faith in his ability to reflect on the issues we have and adapt accordingly. Our "style" has gotten more appealing... but I liked the success of the old, boring one more.

[rgdeuce]

Already over the loss. Had a full night to sleep it off and did. Still think it's time for everyone to move on. I wont kick and scream and demand his firing and I still love the guy, but it's time.

[PHXCATS]

Already over the loss. Had a full night to sleep it off and did. Still think it's time for everyone to move on. I wont kick and scream and demand his firing and I still love the guy, but it's time.

And hire who?

[Newportcat]

If you wanna name call going forward that’s cool...I really don’t care. To do so is so 2018.

It will be interesting to see what happens for sure.

I'm not calling you names, relax. I'm just implying what you'd do if you were in charge, which I don't even necessarily disagree with. It's a tough call and it's one that's going to come from 1. Robbins & 2. Big Boosters. I'm a big ODogg fan, I'm just ribbing ya buddy.

On the booster note it'll be real interesting to see how they feel about a 20 point loss to a 13 seed. They backed Miller completely during the ESPN garbage. Did yesterday change their mind?[/

Couple I talked to, yes it did. Now I did not talk to Jeff Stevens or Davis Family which candidly are really only ones who matter given how supportive they are.

[JMarkJohns]

Sean Miller is the best coach we will get. And as much as I thought he could evolve into more of an offensive guy, I was wrong. He’s a system coach. Nothing wrong with that. But he’s not adaptable. He can only coach up a specific kind of player with a specific kind of attitude within a specific kind of offensive and defensive system.

He needs self-motivated players like TJ, Nick, Kevin, Fogg.

If he can get back to getting his players and coaching them in his system, Miller will be fine.

But I worry he’s lost himself in trying to be Cal. He needs to be like the 2014 team. Not sure we get those type of 5* as freshman again, but if he recruits upside 4* athletes, there’s no reason he can’t have impactful upperclassmen doing many of the things Gordon and Rondae did for us. Recruits in the 40-80 range should be focus, with a few 5* types that fit your system.

[ChooChooCat]

Sean Miller is the best coach we will get. And as much as I thought he could evolve into more of an offensive guy, I was wrong. He’s a system coach. Nothing wrong with that. But he’s not adaptable. He can only coach up a specific kind of player with a specific kind of attitude within a specific kind of offensive and defensive system.

He needs self-motivated players like TJ, Nick, Kevin, Fogg.

If he can get back to getting his players and coaching them in his system, Miller will be fine.

But I worry he’s lost himself in trying to be Cal. He needs to be like the 2014 team. Not sure we get those type of 5* as freshman again, but if he recruits upside 4* athletes, there’s no reason he can’t have impactful upperclassmen doing many of the things Gordon and Rondae did for us. Recruits in the 40-80 range should be focus, with a few 5* types that fit your system.

What this year made more clear than anything else is he needs wings with size and the heart to defend their ass off. Now if they have the athleticism like AG or Rondae then that's perfect, but they absolutely need size and more importantly want to do it.

[TatetheGreat]

Sean Miller is the best coach we will get. And as much as I thought he could evolve into more of an offensive guy, I was wrong. He’s a system coach. Nothing wrong with that. But he’s not adaptable. He can only coach up a specific kind of player with a specific kind of attitude within a specific kind of offensive and defensive system.

He needs self-motivated players like TJ, Nick, Kevin, Fogg.

If he can get back to getting his players and coaching them in his system, Miller will be fine.

But I worry he’s lost himself in trying to be Cal. He needs to be like the 2014 team. Not sure we get those type of 5* as freshman again, but if he recruits upside 4* athletes, there’s no reason he can’t have impactful upperclassmen doing many of the things Gordon and Rondae did for us. Recruits in the 40-80 range should be focus, with a few 5* types that fit your system.

What this year made more clear than anything else is he needs wings with size and the heart to defend their ass off. Now if they have the athleticism like AG or Rondae then that's perfect, but they absolutely need size and more importantly want to do it.

And a decent PG with leadership qualities

[pokinmik]

Yea we HAVE to have a tough PG. Losing to wichita, Xavier, buffalo made that REAL clear.

McConnell was tough as nails, those teams were loaded and for them it really was unlucky finishes. We cannot say the last few cat teams were unlucky, they just weren’t tough enough especially in the backcourt.

Momo and Lyons provided the toughness we needed even with the deficiencies they had and being more shoot-first. Like 97 always alludes to, the PG sets the tone for everyone. I thought having Ayton might offset PJCs softness but boy was I wrong.

[Carcassdragger]

Should've been fired the minute his assistant coach was arrested on a Federal warrant for charges related to the basketball program he's responsible for.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Should've been fired the minute his assistant coach was arrested on a Federal warrant for charges related to the basketball program he's responsible for.

Like Bruce Pearl and Andy Enfield?

[CalStateTempe]

Just want to say I’m digging the discussion here and it’s helping with yesterday a bit.

I am truly fine with whatever may come. Stays or parting of ways, it’s all good.

My biggest concern is does Miller want to be here or does he think a fresh start at a new program will be better for him and his family. Both will
Be rebuilding jobs. He talked ALOT about family in all his pressers since the fbi debacle. Also gave our fan base a ton of credit. But in alluding so much to “what lute built” recently I wonder if he’s comtemplating that steeping aside would be good for him AND the program. (Kinda like when you like and really care for a girl, but you know long term it isn’t going to work for whatever reason so you step aside so you both can find your happiness)

I dunno, I’m probably just reading into things too much.

Bear down.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Sean Miller is the best coach we will get. And as much as I thought he could evolve into more of an offensive guy, I was wrong. He’s a system coach. Nothing wrong with that. But he’s not adaptable. He can only coach up a specific kind of player with a specific kind of attitude within a specific kind of offensive and defensive system.

He needs self-motivated players like TJ, Nick, Kevin, Fogg.

If he can get back to getting his players and coaching them in his system, Miller will be fine.

But I worry he’s lost himself in trying to be Cal. He needs to be like the 2014 team. Not sure we get those type of 5* as freshman again, but if he recruits upside 4* athletes, there’s no reason he can’t have impactful upperclassmen doing many of the things Gordon and Rondae did for us. Recruits in the 40-80 range should be focus, with a few 5* types that fit your system.

I posted this in another thread, but this year's team didn't respond competitively to adversity. That didn't used to be the case. In 14-15, we took the best offensive half of basketball in tournament history and still almost fought through it. Last night, we saw an offensive blitz and folded.

This is the first time I've really been worried about our culture under Miller.

[psiclist23]

I personally thing there was not too much wrong with this team that a great pg wouldn't have solved.
As far as Miller goes, he has been vastly rewarded -$$$$- for doing things a certain way. And a level of success that most teams envy. Would you rush, or even be able, to change a system that has paid you millions over a few short years?
We better hope he sticks around. If he doesn't, it'll be years before we get back to this level, if ever.

[legallykenny]

Sean Miller is the best coach we will get. And as much as I thought he could evolve into more of an offensive guy, I was wrong. He’s a system coach. Nothing wrong with that. But he’s not adaptable. He can only coach up a specific kind of player with a specific kind of attitude within a specific kind of offensive and defensive system.

He needs self-motivated players like TJ, Nick, Kevin, Fogg.

If he can get back to getting his players and coaching them in his system, Miller will be fine.

But I worry he’s lost himself in trying to be Cal. He needs to be like the 2014 team. Not sure we get those type of 5* as freshman again, but if he recruits upside 4* athletes, there’s no reason he can’t have impactful upperclassmen doing many of the things Gordon and Rondae did for us. Recruits in the 40-80 range should be focus, with a few 5* types that fit your system.

I posted this in another thread, but this year's team didn't respond competitively to adversity. That didn't used to be the case. In 14-15, we took the best offensive half of basketball in tournament history and still almost fought through it. Last night, we saw an offensive blitz and folded.

This is the first time I've really been worried about our culture under Miller.

If we had not happened to play Duquesne in the 2012 season, what is Arizona’s record over the past five years?

[ecurbh]

Emotional reactions from fans that were rallying around the same guy 24 hours prior that were “ride or die” are hilariously hypocritical.

“Fire miller and get a winner”. Lol

KO. Russ Pennnel. Mike Dunlap. Tim Floyd. Reggie Theus.

That’s where we were at the last time. Spare me the “we are Arizona” shit. The program, town and school always look better through a fans eyes. Blame miller all you want, and deservedly so. But be careful what you wish for.

The guy has been 2 shots away from the coveted final 4, and has delivered on everything else aside. Suddenly he can’t coach.

Fanatics.

Well put.

Well said. I'm stunned and saddened after last night, and like everyone else I'm wondering what is going to happen to the program in the coming weeks, but I have a long ways to go before joining any kind of "fire Miller" movement.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Sean Miller is the best coach we will get. And as much as I thought he could evolve into more of an offensive guy, I was wrong. He’s a system coach. Nothing wrong with that. But he’s not adaptable. He can only coach up a specific kind of player with a specific kind of attitude within a specific kind of offensive and defensive system.

He needs self-motivated players like TJ, Nick, Kevin, Fogg.

If he can get back to getting his players and coaching them in his system, Miller will be fine.

But I worry he’s lost himself in trying to be Cal. He needs to be like the 2014 team. Not sure we get those type of 5* as freshman again, but if he recruits upside 4* athletes, there’s no reason he can’t have impactful upperclassmen doing many of the things Gordon and Rondae did for us. Recruits in the 40-80 range should be focus, with a few 5* types that fit your system.

I posted this in another thread, but this year's team didn't respond competitively to adversity. That didn't used to be the case. In 14-15, we took the best offensive half of basketball in tournament history and still almost fought through it. Last night, we saw an offensive blitz and folded.

This is the first time I've really been worried about our culture under Miller.

If we had not happened to play Duquesne in the 2012 season, what is Arizona’s record over the past five years?

Probably pretty good. I love TJ, but Aaron, Rondae, Nick, Zeus, etc. were a major part of our attitude and culture too. We had a harder edge than this year's team.

[rgdeuce]

Already over the loss. Had a full night to sleep it off and did. Still think it's time for everyone to move on. I wont kick and scream and demand his firing and I still love the guy, but it's time.

And hire who?

We are still the premier program out west. Even in our current situation, we are still easily a top 10 program. We have history, one of the best fanbases in the country, premier facilities, and tons of players in the NBA, old and young, who further sell our program. At worst, the NCAA will sanction us with a one-year tournament ban (reaching next year's would be an uphill battle anyhow) and the loss of one scholarship a year for three years (we will likely have a hard time using the fully allotted amount the next season or two anyhow). Just have a hard time believing, if the parties mutually divorce on amicable terms, that we don't pull in a good hire.

[PHXCATS]

Already over the loss. Had a full night to sleep it off and did. Still think it's time for everyone to move on. I wont kick and scream and demand his firing and I still love the guy, but it's time.

And hire who?

We are still the premier program out west. Even in our current situation, we are still easily a top 10 program. We have history, one of the best fanbases in the country, premier facilities, and tons of players in the NBA, old and young, who further sell our program. At worst, the NCAA will sanction us with a one-year tournament ban (reaching next year's would be an uphill battle anyhow) and the loss of one scholarship a year for three years (we will likely have a hard time using the fully allotted amount the next season or two anyhow). Just have a hard time believing, if the parties mutually divorce on amicable terms, that we don't pull in a good hire.

No name. Okay.

And yeah things went so smooth last time

[legallykenny]

Sean Miller is the best coach we will get. And as much as I thought he could evolve into more of an offensive guy, I was wrong. He’s a system coach. Nothing wrong with that. But he’s not adaptable. He can only coach up a specific kind of player with a specific kind of attitude within a specific kind of offensive and defensive system.

He needs self-motivated players like TJ, Nick, Kevin, Fogg.

If he can get back to getting his players and coaching them in his system, Miller will be fine.

But I worry he’s lost himself in trying to be Cal. He needs to be like the 2014 team. Not sure we get those type of 5* as freshman again, but if he recruits upside 4* athletes, there’s no reason he can’t have impactful upperclassmen doing many of the things Gordon and Rondae did for us. Recruits in the 40-80 range should be focus, with a few 5* types that fit your system.

I posted this in another thread, but this year's team didn't respond competitively to adversity. That didn't used to be the case. In 14-15, we took the best offensive half of basketball in tournament history and still almost fought through it. Last night, we saw an offensive blitz and folded.

This is the first time I've really been worried about our culture under Miller.

If we had not happened to play Duquesne in the 2012 season, what is Arizona’s record over the past five years?

Probably pretty good. I love TJ, but Aaron, Rondae, Nick, Zeus, etc. were a major part of our attitude and culture too. We had a harder edge than this year's team.

A freshman PJC would have been the starting PG in 15. In 14 Nick may have had to play the point.

[rgdeuce]

Just want to say I’m digging the discussion here and it’s helping with yesterday a bit.

I am truly fine with whatever may come. Stays or parting of ways, it’s all good.

My biggest concern is does Miller want to be here or does he think a fresh start at a new program will be better for him and his family. Both will
Be rebuilding jobs. He talked ALOT about family in all his pressers since the fbi debacle. Also gave our fan base a ton of credit. But in alluding so much to “what lute built” recently I wonder if he’s comtemplating that steeping aside would be good for him AND the program. (Kinda like when you like and really care for a girl, but you know long term it isn’t going to work for whatever reason so you step aside so you both can find your happiness)

I dunno, I’m probably just reading into things too much.

Bear down.

That's my biggest thing. Miller looks drained, defeated like you said. You don't want a person in that state rebuilding the program from ashes again. If the argument is, he will be motivated by redemption, my response would be that Miller had a loaded team and pissed it away in the opening round of the tournament. If the argument is Miller is just snake bitten, an elite program that hasn't been to a final four in 17 years does not need anymore bad luck. If the argument our program is snake bitten, then Miller have had 10 years (cuz he aint doing it with next year's team) to reverse the curse and couldn't do it, so we need to try our luck with someone else.

At some point though, you have to look at the totality of it all. Were we unlucky with our two Wisconsin draws? Wichita State? Buffalo? Rawle hurting his finger last year and choking to Xavier? Maybe. But at some point you have to put on your big boy pants and win a tough game. Only one of those teams was seeded higher than us. We have had some really fucking talented teams here under Sean Miller. Three teams who could have gone down as Top 5 in program history.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Sean Miller is the best coach we will get. And as much as I thought he could evolve into more of an offensive guy, I was wrong. He’s a system coach. Nothing wrong with that. But he’s not adaptable. He can only coach up a specific kind of player with a specific kind of attitude within a specific kind of offensive and defensive system.

He needs self-motivated players like TJ, Nick, Kevin, Fogg.

If he can get back to getting his players and coaching them in his system, Miller will be fine.

But I worry he’s lost himself in trying to be Cal. He needs to be like the 2014 team. Not sure we get those type of 5* as freshman again, but if he recruits upside 4* athletes, there’s no reason he can’t have impactful upperclassmen doing many of the things Gordon and Rondae did for us. Recruits in the 40-80 range should be focus, with a few 5* types that fit your system.

I posted this in another thread, but this year's team didn't respond competitively to adversity. That didn't used to be the case. In 14-15, we took the best offensive half of basketball in tournament history and still almost fought through it. Last night, we saw an offensive blitz and folded.

This is the first time I've really been worried about our culture under Miller.

If we had not happened to play Duquesne in the 2012 season, what is Arizona’s record over the past five years?

Probably pretty good. I love TJ, but Aaron, Rondae, Nick, Zeus, etc. were a major part of our attitude and culture too. We had a harder edge than this year's team.

A freshman PJC would have been the starting PG in 15. In 14 Nick may have had to play the point.

We would have recruited another point without TJ. Who and what impact is an open question, but it would have happened. At that point, we were scoring some great classes, so I think there's a reasonable chance we would have gotten someone good.

Miller made multiple comments during the year TJ sat that he was the future. If we had not had that situation, Miller would have made a move.

[rgdeuce]

Already over the loss. Had a full night to sleep it off and did. Still think it's time for everyone to move on. I wont kick and scream and demand his firing and I still love the guy, but it's time.

And hire who?

We are still the premier program out west. Even in our current situation, we are still easily a top 10 program. We have history, one of the best fanbases in the country, premier facilities, and tons of players in the NBA, old and young, who further sell our program. At worst, the NCAA will sanction us with a one-year tournament ban (reaching next year's would be an uphill battle anyhow) and the loss of one scholarship a year for three years (we will likely have a hard time using the fully allotted amount the next season or two anyhow). Just have a hard time believing, if the parties mutually divorce on amicable terms, that we don't pull in a good hire.

No name. Okay.

And yeah things went so smooth last time

Do I look like the motherfucking athletic director to you? And you never know who is interested until you ask/post the job. How bout you take a nice drive down to Tucson, enjoy the beautiful March weather while walking around our beautiful campus. Then walk into McKale, down to the floor and look up at the banners, retired jerseys. Ask someone to play the "We are Arizona" video on our multi-million dollar scoreboard. Imagine the 14,000 plus fans screaming in the stands. Then walk into the locker room and adjacent basketball facilities, then Richard Jefferson gym, then back to the floor of McKale again, where there are symbolic keys on an Arizona keychain lying on the floor at mid court. Know you got Akot, Smith, Jeter, Barcello, and Randolph, all with at least one year of elite-level coaching/practicing under their belts and at least two years of eligibility. The keys to all of that are yours, all you have to do is weather a self-imposed one year tournament ban that can be used in a year u likely wouldn't make the tournament anyhow, and the loss of one scholarship a year for three years that you likely wouldn't be filling with anyone decent anyhow.

We have now had two coaches who have showed the world that you can win at a very high level at Arizona. That you can be the kings of an entire region. You cant tell me that is not going to make the almonds of some of the best young coaches tingle.

[legallykenny]

We would have recruited another point without TJ. Who and what impact is an open question, but it would have happened. At that point, we were scoring some great classes, so I think there's a reasonable chance we would have gotten someone good.

Miller made multiple comments during the year TJ sat that he was the future. If we had not had that situation, Miller would have made a move.

The fact that Miller has landed 0 NBA level (or even particularly good) PGs out of high school in his now 10 recruiting classes doesn’t dissuade you from your certainty in this?

[NYCat]

Lyons & McConnell bailed out Miller, because his PG recruiting has been bad

[520in480]

Arizona basketball is simply a company whose stock has been high for the better part of three decades, but has seen its stock take a tumble recently. A smart CEO (coach) will recognize the opportunity to buy low, so to speak, with a very realistic expectation that this too shall pass and that UA's stock will again rise to its normal, high value. But this time, his personal stock will rise and he will reap the benefits of being the CEO of a top-15 company. I trust there are plenty of good coaches who recognize the long-term value of coaching at UA, if indeed Miller and UA part ways.

[PHXCATS]

Already over the loss. Had a full night to sleep it off and did. Still think it's time for everyone to move on. I wont kick and scream and demand his firing and I still love the guy, but it's time.

And hire who?

We are still the premier program out west. Even in our current situation, we are still easily a top 10 program. We have history, one of the best fanbases in the country, premier facilities, and tons of players in the NBA, old and young, who further sell our program. At worst, the NCAA will sanction us with a one-year tournament ban (reaching next year's would be an uphill battle anyhow) and the loss of one scholarship a year for three years (we will likely have a hard time using the fully allotted amount the next season or two anyhow). Just have a hard time believing, if the parties mutually divorce on amicable terms, that we don't pull in a good hire.

No name. Okay.

And yeah things went so smooth last time

Do I look like the motherfucking athletic director to you? And you never know who is interested until you ask/post the job. How bout you take a nice drive down to Tucson, enjoy the beautiful March weather while walking around our beautiful campus. Then walk into McKale, down to the floor and look up at the banners, retired jerseys. Ask someone to play the "We are Arizona" video on our multi-million dollar scoreboard. Imagine the 14,000 plus fans screaming in the stands. Then walk into the locker room and adjacent basketball facilities, then Richard Jefferson gym, then back to the floor of McKale again, where there are symbolic keys on an Arizona keychain lying on the floor at mid court. Know you got Akot, Smith, Jeter, Barcello, and Randolph, all with at least one year of elite-level coaching/practicing under their belts and at least two years of eligibility. The keys to all of that are yours, all you have to do is weather a self-imposed one year tournament ban that can be used in a year u likely wouldn't make the tournament anyhow, and the loss of one scholarship a year for three years that you likely wouldn't be filling with anyone decent anyhow.

We have now had two coaches who have showed the world that you can win at a very high level at Arizona. That you can be the kings of an entire region. You cant tell me that is not going to make the almonds of some of the best young coaches tingle.

Different circumstances but the process was not very smooth. Had Kentucky not opened up it sounds like it would have been last time. But it was a very tough hire and UA came out very well with it. Sure everything you say is true but the cloud overhead bring so much uncertainty that most coaches wont want to take such a risk.

I have become a big Miller guy but he did create this for himself to some extent with hiring Book and keeping Book when there were red flags. I think the best thing for both sides if they both want to stay as is, is to let Miller coach one more year to get things turned around on the recruiting side. If not I think most coaches will turn us down again. Too much risk unless you know you can get a guy who doesnt care about the uncertainty and can recruit near the level where Miller did before. And there are very few guys who can do that and most of them are at blue bloods now. It isnt nearly as easy as you are making it seem and 2009 proved that.

[cats101]

Already over the loss. Had a full night to sleep it off and did. Still think it's time for everyone to move on. I wont kick and scream and demand his firing and I still love the guy, but it's time.

And hire who?

We are still the premier program out west. Even in our current situation, we are still easily a top 10 program. We have history, one of the best fanbases in the country, premier facilities, and tons of players in the NBA, old and young, who further sell our program. At worst, the NCAA will sanction us with a one-year tournament ban (reaching next year's would be an uphill battle anyhow) and the loss of one scholarship a year for three years (we will likely have a hard time using the fully allotted amount the next season or two anyhow). Just have a hard time believing, if the parties mutually divorce on amicable terms, that we don't pull in a good hire.

No name. Okay.

And yeah things went so smooth last time

Do I look like the motherfucking athletic director to you? And you never know who is interested until you ask/post the job. How bout you take a nice drive down to Tucson, enjoy the beautiful March weather while walking around our beautiful campus. Then walk into McKale, down to the floor and look up at the banners, retired jerseys. Ask someone to play the "We are Arizona" video on our multi-million dollar scoreboard. Imagine the 14,000 plus fans screaming in the stands. Then walk into the locker room and adjacent basketball facilities, then Richard Jefferson gym, then back to the floor of McKale again, where there are symbolic keys on an Arizona keychain lying on the floor at mid court. Know you got Akot, Smith, Jeter, Barcello, and Randolph, all with at least one year of elite-level coaching/practicing under their belts and at least two years of eligibility. The keys to all of that are yours, all you have to do is weather a self-imposed one year tournament ban that can be used in a year u likely wouldn't make the tournament anyhow, and the loss of one scholarship a year for three years that you likely wouldn't be filling with anyone decent anyhow.

We have now had two coaches who have showed the world that you can win at a very high level at Arizona. That you can be the kings of an entire region. You cant tell me that is not going to make the almonds of some of the best young coaches tingle.

Sorry, but I don't think it's going to work that easy. This isn't a Lute miss 2 year type of transition. There are so many unknows surrounding the program. However, like you said you never know until you ask. Yes, Arizona was able to recruit well, but the perception is those players were paid for. All I have to say is I'm glad I'm not the AD right now.

[Spaceman Spiff]

We would have recruited another point without TJ. Who and what impact is an open question, but it would have happened. At that point, we were scoring some great classes, so I think there's a reasonable chance we would have gotten someone good.

Miller made multiple comments during the year TJ sat that he was the future. If we had not had that situation, Miller would have made a move.

The fact that Miller has landed 0 NBA level (or even particularly good) PGs out of high school in his now 10 recruiting classes doesn’t dissuade you from your certainty in this?

The fact that Miller has recruited PG's for Elite Eight and Sweet 16 teams doesn't dissuade you from certainty that a replacement PG wouldn't produce comparable results.

Cut the devil's advocate schtick. This is a hypothetical question we can argue until we're blue in the face without an answer. I'm still salty from last night and I fail to see the advantage gained by going around and around on a hypo right now.

[BearDown89]

Already over the loss. Had a full night to sleep it off and did. Still think it's time for everyone to move on. I wont kick and scream and demand his firing and I still love the guy, but it's time.

And hire who?

We are still the premier program out west. Even in our current situation, we are still easily a top 10 program. We have history, one of the best fanbases in the country, premier facilities, and tons of players in the NBA, old and young, who further sell our program. At worst, the NCAA will sanction us with a one-year tournament ban (reaching next year's would be an uphill battle anyhow) and the loss of one scholarship a year for three years (we will likely have a hard time using the fully allotted amount the next season or two anyhow). Just have a hard time believing, if the parties mutually divorce on amicable terms, that we don't pull in a good hire.

No name. Okay.

And yeah things went so smooth last time

Do I look like the motherfucking athletic director to you? And you never know who is interested until you ask/post the job. How bout you take a nice drive down to Tucson, enjoy the beautiful March weather while walking around our beautiful campus. Then walk into McKale, down to the floor and look up at the banners, retired jerseys. Ask someone to play the "We are Arizona" video on our multi-million dollar scoreboard. Imagine the 14,000 plus fans screaming in the stands. Then walk into the locker room and adjacent basketball facilities, then Richard Jefferson gym, then back to the floor of McKale again, where there are symbolic keys on an Arizona keychain lying on the floor at mid court. Know you got Akot, Smith, Jeter, Barcello, and Randolph, all with at least one year of elite-level coaching/practicing under their belts and at least two years of eligibility. The keys to all of that are yours, all you have to do is weather a self-imposed one year tournament ban that can be used in a year u likely wouldn't make the tournament anyhow, and the loss of one scholarship a year for three years that you likely wouldn't be filling with anyone decent anyhow.

We have now had two coaches who have showed the world that you can win at a very high level at Arizona. That you can be the kings of an entire region. You cant tell me that is not going to make the almonds of some of the best young coaches tingle.

Bravo. Golf clap. Rep if we had it.