Bear Down Wildcats

Olsondogg wrote:97 is basically a PJC troll at this point. It's literally like the only thing he posts about.

god youre so off -- in the posts just a few days ago in this thread i gave an honest and fair critique, no trolling at all.

he has some good and some bad but is far from ELITE, just fine as a backup, its when AZ and its fans think hes a top line starter playing 30+mpg (like you) or say hes play "fantastically" that i take major exception.

funny, cause my observation/opinion is shared by many, many others.

he played very well against UCLA, maybe his best game ever in a meaningful game at Arizona.

its no surprise that happened with Trier -- Allonzo's presence is a huge shot in the arm for everyone, including Cartwright who can come off the bench with Trier as the sixth man.

kudos, PJC on a well played within yourself game -- even if you did get blocked by the bottom of the backboard

97cats wrote:

Olsondogg wrote:97 is basically a PJC troll at this point. It's literally like the only thing he posts about.

god youre so off -- in the posts just a few days ago in this thread i gave an honest and fair critique, no trolling at all.

he has some good and some bad but is far from ELITE, just fine as a backup, its when AZ and its fans think hes a top line starter playing 30+mpg (like you) or say hes play "fantastically" that i take major exception.

funny, cause my observation/opinion is shared by many, many others.

he played very well against UCLA, maybe his best game ever in a meaningful game at Arizona.

its no surprise that happened with Trier -- Allonzo's presence is a huge shot in the arm for everyone, including Cartwright who can come off the bench with Trier as the sixth man.

kudos, PJC on a well played within yourself game -- even if you did get blocked by the bottom of the backboard

I thought Odogg meant Beachcat97, and I felt like I misunderstood Beachcat97.

Here's where I am on PJC and the UCLA game. I think his defense and rebounding feed off his offense, and his ability to find cutters to the rim is pronounced against mediocre-to-bad man-to-man and zone defenses, which is the spectrum along which I put UCLA (on the bad side). But what I used to wonder is whether PJC can play well in important road games, and his performance against both Cal (whose defense is excellent) and against UCLA show what a complete ass I am with me and my couch thoughts. When he does well at home against Washington and Washington State this week, that will be nothing new. So what I'm still wondering is whether his disappointing game against USC is a rare exception, or a sign of his on-again, off-again performances away from McKale. How will he look against a top-20 defense in a big, deep tourney game? If he looks great, he's elite after all. If not, I'm telling myself our generally awesome guard play at the 2 and wing will take us over the top.

I thought PJC's return was huge in that it meant another pg, a guy who can take care of the ball and allowed our guys to play in position most of the time. I think he is a valuable member of the team but I like him in the back up role and until and unless he can score consistently, I think he should stay in the back up role.

I agree that Trier's return is good news for everyone. Now attention will have to be paid to Trier which frees others up. All the back court guys get more rest and so they can play harder. We have 5 guards/wings who can dribble penetrate or shoot from the outside with PJC being kind of an exception in that he doesn't penetrate to score (don't read that with a dirty mind) and his shooting from outside has yet to be consistent.

PJC is important. Not elite, but important.

97cats wrote:

Olsondogg wrote:97 is basically a PJC troll at this point. It's literally like the only thing he posts about.

god youre so off -- in the posts just a few days ago in this thread i gave an honest and fair critique, no trolling at all.

he has some good and some bad but is far from ELITE, just fine as a backup, its when AZ and its fans think hes a top line starter playing 30+mpg (like you) or say hes play "fantastically" that i take major exception.

funny, cause my observation/opinion is shared by many, many others.

he played very well against UCLA, maybe his best game ever in a meaningful game at Arizona.

its no surprise that happened with Trier -- Allonzo's presence is a huge shot in the arm for everyone, including Cartwright who can come off the bench with Trier as the sixth man.

kudos, PJC on a well played within yourself game -- even if you did get blocked by the bottom of the backboard

First off, would love to find an instance where I said any of that....

Secondly, the PJC thread and a weather thread are the only things you've posted in recently.

If you want to get defensive about your posture on PJC by saying other's agree...that's fine and good for you. My point remains, and is true, you have an agenda against PJC. Hell, you can't even make a single post without noting something negative. At this point we get it. He isn't ELITE or a starter for a PAC 12 team, and will never lead UA to a final 4 and is often the worst player on the floor for both teams. All things you've said, broseph.

Olsondogg wrote:
First off, would love to find an instance where I said any of that....

Secondly, the PJC thread and a weather thread are the only things you've posted in recently.

If you want to get defensive about your posture on PJC by saying other's agree...that's fine and good for you. My point remains, and is true, you have an agenda against PJC. Hell, you can't even make a single post without noting something negative. At this point we get it. He isn't ELITE or a starter for a PAC 12 team, and will never lead UA to a final 4 and is often the worst player on the floor for both teams. All things you've said, broseph.

here you go again, Odogg 2009 version -- i hear you.

97cats wrote:

Olsondogg wrote:
First off, would love to find an instance where I said any of that....

Secondly, the PJC thread and a weather thread are the only things you've posted in recently.

If you want to get defensive about your posture on PJC by saying other's agree...that's fine and good for you. My point remains, and is true, you have an agenda against PJC. Hell, you can't even make a single post without noting something negative. At this point we get it. He isn't ELITE or a starter for a PAC 12 team, and will never lead UA to a final 4 and is often the worst player on the floor for both teams. All things you've said, broseph.

here you go again, Odogg 2009 version -- i hear you.

(here's where I piss off both sides)

The truth seems to lie somewhere in the middle here, as with most things...

97Cats...I don't know you. I just read your stuff from time to time and you are clearly both connected and knowledgeable about the game. But it is clear personal knowledge of what Ramon did in handcuffing Miller with threats of transfer colors your view of PJC. We were both high on Thornton, and I think re-classifying and moving across the country to play in a meat grinder with a head coach who is a CEO these days chewed him up and spit him out. I still think he could be very good. And our pursuit of him and any PG seems to have been chilled by the actions of PJC's family, of which you know a great deal. I think it is fair to say this helped cloud your view of PJC's upside. And if I have accurately summed up what you know, we should all be angry with that family, because we really needed PG play, especially last year.

But PJC has shown signs, before the ankle injury (and, quite frankly, in his first games back from the injury where he played even more in control and like a true point, maybe because of his limited mobility), of being a good enough PG to take this team places. He will never be an elite PG, and if his shot doesn't materialize, he needs to stop jacking up threes (I know he was thought of as a good perimeter shooter coming in, but unless last weekend is the expectation going forward, he needs to be more of a distributor). But when his wheels are there, he does a very good job of finding Dusan in the post (there seems to be a connection there), and his court vision seemed about 10X better in transition this year. He is not the best PG in the league, but he is the best we have, no matter the reason, and he appears to be improved and ready to win both at home and on the road. He is rarely the worst player on the court.

Olsondogg wrote:He isn't ELITE or a starter for a PAC 12 team, and will never lead UA to a final 4 and is often the worst player on the floor for both teams. All things you've said, broseph.

Whole lotta facts in there ^

Lets get the true point guard expert phillysfansince88 to chime in

EVCat wrote:
(here's where I piss off both sides)

The truth seems to lie somewhere in the middle here, as with most things...

97Cats...I don't know you. I just read your stuff from time to time and you are clearly both connected and knowledgeable about the game. But it is clear personal knowledge of what Ramon did in handcuffing Miller with threats of transfer colors your view of PJC. We were both high on Thornton, and I think re-classifying and moving across the country to play in a meat grinder with a head coach who is a CEO these days chewed him up and spit him out. I still think he could be very good. And our pursuit of him and any PG seems to have been chilled by the actions of PJC's family, of which you know a great deal. I think it is fair to say this helped cloud your view of PJC's upside. And if I have accurately summed up what you know, we should all be angry with that family, because we really needed PG play, especially last year.

But PJC has shown signs, before the ankle injury (and, quite frankly, in his first games back from the injury where he played even more in control and like a true point, maybe because of his limited mobility), of being a good enough PG to take this team places. He will never be an elite PG, and if his shot doesn't materialize, he needs to stop jacking up threes (I know he was thought of as a good perimeter shooter coming in, but unless last weekend is the expectation going forward, he needs to be more of a distributor). But when his wheels are there, he does a very good job of finding Dusan in the post (there seems to be a connection there), and his court vision seemed about 10X better in transition this year. He is not the best PG in the league, but he is the best we have, no matter the reason, and he appears to be improved and ready to win both at home and on the road. He is rarely the worst player on the court.

thx for the post and thx for taking the time.

i have no personal problem with him or his dad. i look at Cartwright as the player ONLY, and i think hes best suited as back-up and if allowed to be that back-up player who can get comfy in his role and find his rhythm, he can and will be productive.

my position is hes not a a starting caliber 30+ mpg leading player for Arizona -- cut it however you want, i dont think he is, thats it. i know its just my opinion, i understand that and others disagree.

however, IMO, Cartwright isnt best utilized as the primary starter at PG, hes not made up for it and its not natural for him, at least not up to this point.

now with Trier back, Allonzo alleviates so much pressure on everyone, including Cartwright, who can come off the bench with more confidence and be successful the majority of the time, as a back-up

prior, i felt like he was being forced into a position where success was going to be very difficult to achieve, and as ive said many times, thats not the kids fault.

*** question *** who was the worst player on the floor vs USC????

Pinder for Arizona.

Anyone not named Metu, Stewart, or mcclaughlin for USC.

Jefe wrote:

Olsondogg wrote:He isn't ELITE or a starter for a PAC 12 team, and will never lead UA to a final 4 and is often the worst player on the floor for both teams. All things you've said, broseph.

Whole lotta facts in there ^

Lets get the true point guard expert phillysfansince88 to chime in

Those are all very factual statements. I don't really get why stating the obvious is an unfair criticism of PJC. You can think he can have a role without thinking it is good for the program if that role is big.

PennZona20 wrote:Pinder for Arizona.

6mins, 4pts, 2-3fg, 1rb, 0to >>>>>> 19mins, 0pts, 0-6fg, 2rb, 3ast, 3to

and frankly, Cartwright coulda had 6 TO's had USC not fumbled several of his awful passes away from themselves.

PennZona20 wrote:Anyone not named Metu, Stewart, or mcclaughlin for USC.

im not going to address this comment, look at the box yourself, but if you watched the game as well, that wouldnt be necessary.

"The game at Cal and tonight's game (Utah), I don't believe we would have been on the winning end if he didn't play," Miller said. "Credit to Parker for working hard behind the scenes and being about to get back after four weeks."
One of the beneficiaries of Jackson-Cartwright's passing is center Dusan Ristic, who had 18 points and eight rebounds and fueled a late surge against the Utes (10-4, 1-1).
Ristic made 7 of 10 shots from the field. He also hit all four free throw attempts during a 7-0 run after Utah closed within three points with 5:59 left. Ristic scored eight points in the final six minutes.
He said the offense moves "much, much better" with Jackson-Cartwright on the court. Jackson-Cartwright is the only pure point guard on the roster, although he has been coming off the bench since his return from injury.
"I'm happy that Parker is back," Ristic said.

Important cog. Not worthy of "worst player on floor' putdowns.

Or:

Miller and many of us have a massive blindspot.

Why litigate this in the midst an a huge upswing by the team? Does seem personal, even if it isn't.

its not, ive been clear about that. i talk about performance and results and others make it not about the play.

so whos making it personal?

stick to the results -- he had a very nice game against UCLA (as was acknowledged and state) and a very poor game against USC (acknowledged and stated) so i fail to see what the issue is with my critique.

whiuch again, for the 100th time, is about how Cartwright should be used.

READYY??????

HERE WE GO -- again....

as a back-up, not a front line starter.

that is not personal, its what i see and my opinion of him as a basketball player.

I think we can all agree that PJC is what he is this season. A solid back-up point guard. He doesn't suck. He isn't a star. I'm not sure how much debate there can be here...

Hobbes wrote:I think we can all agree that PJC is what he is this season. A solid back-up point guard. He doesn't suck. He isn't a star. I'm not sure how much debate there can be here...

hallelujah

97,

It's the avatar.

LH

Hobbes wrote:I think we can all agree that PJC is what he is this season. A solid back-up point guard. He doesn't suck. He isn't a star. I'm not sure how much debate there can be here...

PJC is a rorschach test. We all agree with the above statement and then impose our own views on it to define what it means in the larger world of Wildcat basketball.

Longhorned wrote:97,

It's the avatar.

LH

And the absence of posts about other players. Tell us what you think of them, too! Share the knowledge!

We get where you are on Parker.

gumby wrote:

Longhorned wrote:97,

It's the avatar.

LH

And the absence of posts about other players. Tell us what you think of them, too! Share the knowledge!

We get where you are on Parker.

My one year old boy is obsessed with the classic Winnie the Pooh movie. Eeyore is pretty damn funny if you ask me.

No points, no shot attempts. no assists, 2 PF 3 TO. Fouling a 3 point shooter?

Merkin wrote:No points, no shot attempts. no assists, 2 PF 3 TO. Fouling a 3 point shooter?

Yeah, that foul was really a dumb move.

With Pinder not even taking his warmups off we won't need to have the worst player on the court discussion.

Not his best game to say the least.

It will hard for him to find minutes with Trier so needed now on the offensive end and the trust CSM has with Kadeem, Rawle, and Kobi as well.

Hope he doesn't clock out with the greatly reduced role. He was god-awful today.

rgdeuce wrote:Hope he doesn't clock out with the greatly reduced role. He was god-awful today.

Kind of looks like he has already with his unwillingness to shoot the ball. Last 5 games, he has no points in 4 of them, and only 6 in the other. No shot attempts at all the last 2 games, although he sort of had one today that was blocked.

rgdeuce wrote:Hope he doesn't clock out with the greatly reduced role. He was god-awful today.

He was still on the court in crunch time. That's got to count for something.

Its a good thing, cuz he only played 13 minutes with the crunch time. I get wanting to have a ball handler out there to close, but a guy draining a 3 over you and fouling a 3 point shooter are reasons why one would second guess that move.

Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

ChooChooCat wrote:Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

That's what gets me with PJC. He shows flashes of being solid, but they're always flashes and he's never been able to hold down a starting job or show that he can become a solid player on the whole.

This is two years straight he was the presumptive starter and has seen a major step backwards as the season has gone along.

PJC last night looked like a rando from a rec center thrown into the middle of an Arizona home game versus Washington.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

That's what gets me with PJC. He shows flashes of being solid, but they're always flashes and he's never been able to hold down a starting job or show that he can become a solid player on the whole.

This is two years straight he was the presumptive starter and has seen a major step backwards as the season has gone along.

This losing confidence thing is just too much. I totally understand that happening to an underclassmen, but he's a junior now. You know what you can do out on that court, you've done it before, so just fricken do it. Arizona literally had to hold his hand last year to boost him up and now they have to do it again. Just frustrating.

ChooChooCat wrote:Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

So no confidence in Barcello at that position?

loomer wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

So no confidence in Barcello at that position?

As a freshman? No.

I really like Barcello, but he's really a combo guard at best, and his first season should only be in line for spot minutes (maybe up to 10 per game) pending on the roster of course.

ChooChooCat wrote:

loomer wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

So no confidence in Barcello at that position?

As a freshman? No.

I really like Barcello, but he's really a combo guard at best, and his first season should only be in line for spot minutes (maybe up to 10 per game) pending on the roster of course.

That sounds fair. How far off would a potential Arcidiacano comparison be?

loomer wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:

loomer wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

So no confidence in Barcello at that position?

As a freshman? No.

I really like Barcello, but he's really a combo guard at best, and his first season should only be in line for spot minutes (maybe up to 10 per game) pending on the roster of course.

That sounds fair. How far off would a potential Arcidiacano comparison be?

I don't know if he'll ever be as good of a facilitator as Arc, but that's not a bad one. Barcello likes to shoot...a lot, if he can be reigned in then I can see it.

ChooChooCat wrote:

loomer wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

So no confidence in Barcello at that position?

As a freshman? No.

I really like Barcello, but he's really a combo guard at best, and his first season should only be in line for spot minutes (maybe up to 10 per game) pending on the roster of course.

I agree with this. Barcello could surprise, but he isn't the kind of player you pencil in right away.

Plus, with Ayton, etc., we're looking at very high expectations next year. I think there will be a lot of pressure not to have pg as an unknown situation that could shortcut the potential at other positions.

Which is why Miller needs to be recruiting Simmons to return and play PG next year as hard as he is Duval. Simmons at OG next year would tremendously help both his stock and us.

I can't see any reason for Simmons to be leaving early other than he has a family he really needs to go to work for. He's got some really enticing qualities but they aren't going to be honed sitting on the bench for Cleveland. Just my opinion on that.

Miller absolutely needs to find a PG to start next year. PJC can probably do a decent job of it but decent job isn't what anyone is looking for.

Barcello is never going to be a lead guard for Arizona unless some weird stuff happens. The guy is a 2. A shooter. He needs to hit the weights. He kind of looks like a poor mans Nick Johnson to me, which is fine considering he has a much silkier j, but the guy is going to need to get stronger, faster. He'll contribute for sure but I wouldn't expect him to be a major guy until his Junior Year. Maybe he'll get their faster when he is getting better coaching/training, but my expectations are tempered on AB for the early part of his college days. The other three have that higher athletic upside to really come on early in my opinion.

Other than Trier and Markkanen, I wouldn't recommend anyone leaving. I do get that Alkins has about tapped out physically but I think another big year for Rawle would get him closer to the mid/late first round. I think he'd be better off getting a little more experience here before starting off his NBA days. I just hate seeing guys like Kevon Looney sitting on the bench for years (I know the money is good) when they can still do things to improve at the college level that can make them far more ready to be plugged in and ready to play. Kevon was physically ready but his game wasn't. Alkins getting another year would be huge in my eyes, but I'm not the one cashing NBA checks.

I'm totally on board with getting another PG....PJC just isn't Arizona-starter quality IMHO....love the kid but he's just not physically built to be our starting PG. Watching 'At All Costs' was really enlightening as well re: his injury-bugs.

Sadly, I just don't see where we can get one at this late time.....unless we get lucky and some Senior Grad pops up....or Kobi really explodes next year as a PG.....

PennZona20 wrote:Which is why Miller needs to be recruiting Simmons to return and play PG next year as hard as he is Duval. Simmons at OG next year would tremendously help both his stock and us.

Wouldn't get my hopes up. Either way as I mentioned in the other thread, I think Simmons is very well suited as a wing personally.

BibbysTowelDude wrote:I can't see any reason for Simmons to be leaving early other than he has a family he really needs to go to work for. He's got some really enticing qualities but they aren't going to be honed sitting on the bench for Cleveland. Just my opinion on that.

Miller absolutely needs to find a PG to start next year. PJC can probably do a decent job of it but decent job isn't what anyone is looking for.

Barcello is never going to be a lead guard for Arizona unless some weird stuff happens. The guy is a 2. A shooter. He needs to hit the weights. He kind of looks like a poor mans Nick Johnson to me, which is fine considering he has a much silkier j, but the guy is going to need to get stronger, faster. He'll contribute for sure but I wouldn't expect him to be a major guy until his Junior Year. Maybe he'll get their faster when he is getting better coaching/training, but my expectations are tempered on AB for the early part of his college days. The other three have that higher athletic upside to really come on early in my opinion.

Other than Trier and Markkanen, I wouldn't recommend anyone leaving. I do get that Alkins has about tapped out physically but I think another big year for Rawle would get him closer to the mid/late first round. I think he'd be better off getting a little more experience here before starting off his NBA days. I just hate seeing guys like Kevon Looney sitting on the bench for years (I know the money is good) when they can still do things to improve at the college level that can make them far more ready to be plugged in and ready to play. Kevon was physically ready but his game wasn't. Alkins getting another year would be huge in my eyes, but I'm not the one cashing NBA checks.

Rawle has to improve his handle greatly to stick in the NBA. I believe he's very likely to return next year at this rate.

Bangkok Wildcat wrote:
Sadly, I just don't see where we can get one at this late time.....unless we get lucky and some Senior Grad pops up....or Kobi really explodes next year as a PG.....

I mean, I did mention Trevon Duval in this very thread.

loomer wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

So no confidence in Barcello at that position?

Just saw this posted. Not sure when this was shot, but he looks like he is playing a bunch of junior high sized kids, and has a very high dribble. Behind the back crap will end too.

Merkin wrote:

loomer wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

So no confidence in Barcello at that position?

Just saw this posted. Not sure when this was shot, but he looks like he is playing a bunch of junior high sized kids, and has a very high dribble. Behind the back crap will end too.

The Arizona high school season does not provide Barcello top level competition.

But he has proven capable at the top levels with Oakland Soldiers. His level of play during AAU ball was the turning point in his recruiting (not so much for us, but for his own confidence).

His handle is strong. But he is not a straight 1. He is more of a scoring 1 if he plays point (pure combo guard), and his strength is court vision (lends to PG qualities) and ability to shoot quick from multiple spots, midrange to 25'

I would not think we are counting on Alex to be our PG. That may happen because things happen, but that should NOT be our plan.

I'm not making excuses for pjc but don't forget that he is not 100%. CSM said he would not be fully healed until he can rest his ankle in the offseason. Look at how KA was ineffective after his illness last year. PJC is what he is but he will be better next year. I still wish we had other options.

ChooChooCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

ChooChooCat wrote:Yeah this regression (again and again and again) is certainly cause for worry primarily for next season. I think Arizona has to go balls out for Trevon Duval and if they strike out there then the grad transfer route may be necessary.

That's what gets me with PJC. He shows flashes of being solid, but they're always flashes and he's never been able to hold down a starting job or show that he can become a solid player on the whole.

This is two years straight he was the presumptive starter and has seen a major step backwards as the season has gone along.

This losing confidence thing is just too much. I totally understand that happening to an underclassmen, but he's a junior now. You know what you can do out on that court, you've done it before, so just fricken do it. Arizona literally had to hold his hand last year to boost him up and now they have to do it again. Just frustrating.

Some people just dont have it. Long history of guys with A-grade talent and with a much lower grade for mental toughness. Eventually it catches up with them. Being 5'8 (or whatever) and having a super intense father makes it even worse.

ChooChooCat wrote:

Bangkok Wildcat wrote:
Sadly, I just don't see where we can get one at this late time.....unless we get lucky and some Senior Grad pops up....or Kobi really explodes next year as a PG.....

I mean, I did mention Trevon Duval in this very thread.

What we are discussing is the ultimate "pitch" for Miller to get him to come here and the reason Calipari pulls whatever point guard he wants.

Hypothetically...

If a Duval came here - would we expect PJC to shirt, transfer, or play?