Tommy Lloyd

[arizonawildcats]

[TheCat]

I guess when boosters say foreign player heavy rosters have not been shown as effective I would question that and the intelligence of those that said that. Ballo (foreigner) and Pelle (euro)are both starters on a team that was number 1 in the country. Mathurin was a foreign player. The leading scorer and rebounder last year Tubelis was a Euro. So arguably 4 of our top players over the last 3 years have been Euro's or foreign guys.

Most first year coaches don't go to a sweet 16. Last year we were injured but underachieved in the tourney. We lost over 80% of our scoring this year and are back in the sweet 16. That is not done by a sub par coach.

Some people though Lute should have been fired for "under achieving" in the Tourney. Most judge him as a hall of famer.

[Winger]

I guess when boosters say foreign player heavy rosters have not been shown as effective I would question that and the intelligence of those that said that. Ballo (foreigner) and Pelle (euro)are both starters on a team that was number 1 in the country. Mathurin was a foreign player. The leading scorer and rebounder last year Tubelis was a Euro. So arguably 4 our top players over the last 3 years have been Euro's or foreign guys.

Most first year coaches don't go to a sweet 16. Last year we were injured but underachieved in the tourney. We lost over 80% of our scoring this year and are back in the sweet 16. That is not done by a sub par coach.

Some people though Lute should have been fired for "under achieving" in the Tourney. Most judge him as a hall of famer.

Move the goalposts much lol.

How many Euro, or even foreign-but-not-Euro, heavy rosters that have made Final Fours or won championships can you show me?

Guessing that number is: zero.

[Fishclamps]

Sooooo Miller in his first 3 years didn't make the tournament, lost in the elite eight, and then went to the NIT.

Tommy's first 3 lost in the sweet 16, lost in the first round, and are currently back in the sweet 16.

We gave Miller 9 more years after that, and I'm supposed to believe that Tommy's seat would be even mildly uncomfortable?

[TheCat]

I guess when boosters say foreign player heavy rosters have not been shown as effective I would question that and the intelligence of those that said that. Ballo (foreigner) and Pelle (euro)are both starters on a team that was number 1 in the country. Mathurin was a foreign player. The leading scorer and rebounder last year Tubelis was a Euro. So arguably 4 our top players over the last 3 years have been Euro's or foreign guys.

Most first year coaches don't go to a sweet 16. Last year we were injured but underachieved in the tourney. We lost over 80% of our scoring this year and are back in the sweet 16. That is not done by a sub par coach.

Some people though Lute should have been fired for "under achieving" in the Tourney. Most judge him as a hall of famer.

Move the goalposts much lol.

How many Euro, or even foreign-but-not-Euro, heavy rosters that have made Final Fours or won championships can you show me?

Guessing that number is: zero.

I guess that is a bit disingenuous since most teams don't have a majority of Euro's (but you knew that right) but I would say Gonzaga multiple times is close but what the hell have they accomplished. No one is moving the goal post. Just pointing out boosters that don't think that foreigner are major contributors are idiots.

Oh and one team off the top of my head that comes close is Oregon final four team in 2016.
F 24 Dillon Brooks 6 ft 7 in (2.01 m) 225 lb (102 kg) Jr Findlay Prep Mississauga, Ontario
F 25 Chris Boucher (C) 6 ft 10 in (2.08 m) 200 lb (91 kg) Sr Northwest College Montreal, Quebec
G 31 Dylan Ennis 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) 195 lb (88 kg) GS Villanova Brampton, Ontario
F 41 Roman Sorkin 6 ft 10 in (2.08 m) 225 lb (102 kg) Jr Hof HaSharon HS Ashdod, Isr

[Winger]

You’re moving the goalposts again. The issue isn’t “contributors”. The issue is: lack of ncaa tournament performance coupled the very unconventional roster composition when it comes to teams that have made F4s and won natties. When the AD is looking for folks to commit to $25,000 a year times 10 years this is something I have heard.

Again, getting past week 1 was helpful in this regard, imo, I think.

[Fishclamps]

Again, how does 1 tournament appearance in the first 3 years for Miller warrant 9 more years but 3 in 3 years mean Tommy is on a hot seat?

The best way to increase your odds of winning is to make the tournament in the first place.

What surefire coach are you gonna get to replace him? These boosters sound like myopic tools, no offense.

[dmjcat]

I guess when boosters say foreign player heavy rosters have not been shown as effective I would question that and the intelligence of those that said that. Ballo (foreigner) and Pelle (euro)are both starters on a team that was number 1 in the country. Mathurin was a foreign player. The leading scorer and rebounder last year Tubelis was a Euro. So arguably 4 our top players over the last 3 years have been Euro's or foreign guys.

Most first year coaches don't go to a sweet 16. Last year we were injured but underachieved in the tourney. We lost over 80% of our scoring this year and are back in the sweet 16. That is not done by a sub par coach.

Some people though Lute should have been fired for "under achieving" in the Tourney. Most judge him as a hall of famer.

Move the goalposts much lol.

How many Euro, or even foreign-but-not-Euro, heavy rosters that have made Final Fours or won championships can you show me?

Guessing that number is: zero.

I guess that is a bit disingenuous since most teams don't have a majority of Euro's (but you knew that right) but I would say Gonzaga multiple times is close but what the hell have they accomplished. No one is moving the goal post. Just pointing out boosters that don't think that foreigner are major contributors are idiots.

Oh and one team off the top of my head that comes close is Oregon final four team in 2016.
F 24 Dillon Brooks 6 ft 7 in (2.01 m) 225 lb (102 kg) Jr Findlay Prep Mississauga, Ontario
F 25 Chris Boucher (C) 6 ft 10 in (2.08 m) 200 lb (91 kg) Sr Northwest College Montreal, Quebec
G 31 Dylan Ennis 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) 195 lb (88 kg) GS Villanova Brampton, Ontario
F 41 Roman Sorkin 6 ft 10 in (2.08 m) 225 lb (102 kg) Jr Hof HaSharon HS Ashdod, Isr

Gonzagas 2016-17 squad (which made it to the Championship game) had a boatload of Euros

[TheCat]

You’re moving the goalposts again. The issue isn’t “contributors”. The issue is: lack of ncaa tournament performance coupled the very unconventional roster composition when it comes to teams that have made F4s and won natties. When the AD is looking for folks to commit to $25,000 a year times 10 years this is something I have heard.

Again, getting past week 1 was helpful in this regard, imo, I think.

So how am I moving the goal post? I just showed you a team that made the final four that started 3 foreign players and one key reserve. You're the one that made the point that foreign players being an "unconventional roster composition" was an issue. Gonzaga when they had Rui was a team that had foreign contributors that made a final four.

Since it is important getting past the first weekend isn't 2/3 of the time Lloyd has been there good enough? Only Gonzaga and Houston (four) entered this NCAA tournament with an active streak of two or more Sweet 16s in a row. Why do you think they thought that was critical to Tommy when donors loved Sean Miller even when his reputation took a hit job and we didn't get to participate in the tourney?

In my experience donors contribute because they have a connection or love for the university or the community. If that wasn't true we would not have a single contributor to the football team before last year and as you know we had major contributors (Coles for one) when we were shit. If they are only asking for $25K/year for major donors I want my $10K back for a bench 15 years ago.

[Postmaster]

Again, how does 1 tournament appearance in the first 3 years for Miller warrant 9 more years but 3 in 3 years mean Tommy is on a hot seat?

The best way to increase your odds of winning is to make the tournament in the first place.

What surefire coach are you gonna get to replace him? These boosters sound like myopic tools, no offense.

It seems like IF they had flamed out on Thursday SOME booster were going to be concerned.
Year one, with CSM’s players, they struggle vs TCU and get worked by HOU.
Year two, still with a lot of CSM’s guys, they lose first game to an IVY league school.
I can see how some people might be a little worried. CTL had never been a HC and his focus has been on Euro recruiting. Multiple times I’ve heard that some of the Euros say that tournaments aren’t a big deal because they play a lot of tournaments in Europe every season.

I don’t think the boosters were on the verge of trying to dump him. He did get his contract before this weekend.

Aren’t the Stevens firmly in his corner.

People get frustrated and anxious. Especially if you factor in the other sports here. They vent, they calm down, they write a check.

Did Heeke have anything to do with hiring CTL?

Edit: I don’t consider Canadians the same as Euros, at least regarding U18 basketball.

[Fishclamps]

I just think people need to understand the difference between a bad season and a disappointing season

[RondaeShimmy]

Again, how does 1 tournament appearance in the first 3 years for Miller warrant 9 more years but 3 in 3 years mean Tommy is on a hot seat?

The best way to increase your odds of winning is to make the tournament in the first place.

What surefire coach are you gonna get to replace him? These boosters sound like myopic tools, no offense.

It seems like IF they had flamed out on Thursday SOME booster were going to be concerned.
Year one, with CSM’s players, they struggle vs TCU and get worked by HOU.
Year two, still with a lot of CSM’s guys, they lose first game to an IVY league school.
I can see how some people might be a little worried. CTL had never been a HC and his focus has been on Euro recruiting. Multiple times I’ve heard that some of the Euros say that tournaments aren’t a big deal because they play a lot of tournaments in Europe every season.

I don’t think the boosters were on the verge of trying to dump him. He did get his contract before this weekend.

Aren’t the Stevens firmly in his corner.

People get frustrated and anxious. Especially if you factor in the other sports here. They vent, they calm down, they write a check.

Did Heeke have anything to do with hiring CTL?

Edit: I don’t consider Canadians the same as Euros, at least regarding U18 basketball.

Miller players his 1st year: Terry, Mathurin, Koloko, Kriisa, tubelis, Nowell who didn't play
Mathurin, Terry, Koloko all were far better in Lloyd's system than Miller's. I mean just go at what they looked like before. Look at what Miller did with 3 similar NBA players on his roster with Mannion (yes he got some NBA mins), Green, Nnaji.

Miller players in his 2nd year: Tubelis, Kerr - that's not a lot of Miller players.

[Postmaster]

Again, how does 1 tournament appearance in the first 3 years for Miller warrant 9 more years but 3 in 3 years mean Tommy is on a hot seat?

The best way to increase your odds of winning is to make the tournament in the first place.

What surefire coach are you gonna get to replace him? These boosters sound like myopic tools, no offense.

It seems like IF they had flamed out on Thursday SOME booster were going to be concerned.
Year one, with CSM’s players, they struggle vs TCU and get worked by HOU.
Year two, still with a lot of CSM’s guys, they lose first game to an IVY league school.
I can see how some people might be a little worried. CTL had never been a HC and his focus has been on Euro recruiting. Multiple times I’ve heard that some of the Euros say that tournaments aren’t a big deal because they play a lot of tournaments in Europe every season.

I don’t think the boosters were on the verge of trying to dump him. He did get his contract before this weekend.

Aren’t the Stevens firmly in his corner.

People get frustrated and anxious. Especially if you factor in the other sports here. They vent, they calm down, they write a check.

Did Heeke have anything to do with hiring CTL?

Edit: I don’t consider Canadians the same as Euros, at least regarding U18 basketball.

Miller players his 1st year: Terry, Mathurin, Koloko, Kriisa, tubelis, Nowell who didn't play
Mathurin, Terry, Koloko all were far better in Lloyd's system than Miller's. I mean just go at what they looked like before. Look at what Miller did with 3 similar NBA players on his roster with Mannion (yes he got some NBA mins), Green, Nnaji.

Miller players in his 2nd year: Tubelis, Kerr - that's not a lot of Miller players.

That’s the point. When CTL only had a couple of CSM’s players he lost in first round.
That’s why people were a little worried.
This season the team has show a tendency to relax and let teams back in game or inferior teams

I think those are reasons why people were concerned. Same stuff with Fisch.

[TheCat]

I agree there was concern on whether top recruits would take a chance or if transfers thought it was wise to sign with a young head coach. Hell before KJ and Love signed that angst was here in spades.
What we have in a coach is a guy that took an out of shape player that could not get a minute at gonzaga and turn him into an all conference player. That took a four year defensive player from San Diego State and turn him into a player that hit more 3 pointers this year than he did in the previous 4. He took a guy that was widely thought to be the reason UNC failed and turned him into conference player of the year and career highs in shooting %, rebounds and assists. He has now signed a class that I think will be top 5 in the country with two 5 star guys and a big (foreign) that will be green but I love this potential and a 4 star that has a great shot and been compared to Ben Gordon and U of A great Salim. While doing this he is a coach that won more games then any coach in NCAA basketball history. If booster were concerned after seeing that then they forgot what they looked like in year 3 of their careers. And yes they are not well versed in the game but we still welcome their checks.

[Winger]

You’re moving the goalposts again. The issue isn’t “contributors”. The issue is: lack of ncaa tournament performance coupled the very unconventional roster composition when it comes to teams that have made F4s and won natties. When the AD is looking for folks to commit to $25,000 a year times 10 years this is something I have heard.

Again, getting past week 1 was helpful in this regard, imo, I think.

So how am I moving the goal post? I just showed you a team that made the final four that started 3 foreign players and one key reserve. You're the one that made the point that foreign players being an "unconventional roster composition" was an issue. Gonzaga when they had Rui was a team that had foreign contributors that made a final four.

Since it is important getting past the first weekend isn't 2/3 of the time Lloyd has been there good enough? Why do you think they thought that was critical to Tommy when donors loved Sean Miller even when his reputation took a hit job and we didn't get to participate in the tourney?

In my experience donors contribute because they have a connection or love for the university or the community. If that wasn't true we would not have a single contributor to the football team before last year and as you know we had major contributors (Coles for one) when we were shit. If they are only asking for $25K/year for major donors I want my $10K back for a bench 15 years ago.

Not fighting with you here ftr, just discussing. Postmaster hits on a bunch of it above and you have to understand that I was offering speculation about how the money would have reacted to not making it out of this past weekend - murmurs not pitchforks.

You move the posts by taking a very specific factor — lack of NCAA tournament success — which, when coupled with another specific factor — the unconventional roster of 8 or more foreign born players — and respond with a bunch of things that are not related to either topic. You double down on that by noting that 1 team has been successful one time (that Gonzaga NC team did not have a bunch of Euros, they had 1, Premek, and another guy who played 10 minutes).

From the standpoint of the opposite side of the fence from you, Lloyd got extremely lucky to get past TCU and then his #1 seeded team got completely worked and out toughed (an issue for Euros) by Houston in a game they were never in and then as a 2-seed got blasted by Princeton in the first round.

If Arizona had not made it out of the 1st weekend this year as a 2-seed again I believe folks would have started murmuring more than they have been behind the scenes.

That is why I posted above that I thought it was pretty big for Lloyd to have made it past that.

[Fishclamps]

I think it just depends on the players you get when it comes to Euros. You can say most aren't built for the physicality of the American game but Pelle sure as hell is built like a tank.

[TheCat]

You’re moving the goalposts again. The issue isn’t “contributors”. The issue is: lack of ncaa tournament performance coupled the very unconventional roster composition when it comes to teams that have made F4s and won natties. When the AD is looking for folks to commit to $25,000 a year times 10 years this is something I have heard.

Again, getting past week 1 was helpful in this regard, imo, I think.

So how am I moving the goal post? I just showed you a team that made the final four that started 3 foreign players and one key reserve. You're the one that made the point that foreign players being an "unconventional roster composition" was an issue. Gonzaga when they had Rui was a team that had foreign contributors that made a final four.

Since it is important getting past the first weekend isn't 2/3 of the time Lloyd has been there good enough? Why do you think they thought that was critical to Tommy when donors loved Sean Miller even when his reputation took a hit job and we didn't get to participate in the tourney?

In my experience donors contribute because they have a connection or love for the university or the community. If that wasn't true we would not have a single contributor to the football team before last year and as you know we had major contributors (Coles for one) when we were shit. If they are only asking for $25K/year for major donors I want my $10K back for a bench 15 years ago.

Not fighting with you here ftr, just discussing. Postmaster hits on a bunch of it above and you have to understand that I was offering speculation about how the money would have reacted to not making it out of this past weekend - murmurs not pitchforks.

You move the posts by taking a very specific factor — lack of NCAA tournament success — which, when coupled with another specific factor — the unconventional roster of 8 or more foreign born players — and respond with a bunch of things that are not related to either topic. You double down on that by noting that 1 team has been successful one time (that Gonzaga NC team did not have a bunch of Euros, they had 1, Premek, and another guy who played 10 minutes).

From the standpoint of the opposite side of the fence from you, Lloyd got extremely lucky to get past TCU and then his #1 seeded team got completely worked and out toughed (an issue for Euros) by Houston in a game they were never in and then as a 2-seed got blasted by Princeton in the first round.

If Arizona had not made it out of the 1st round this year as a 2-seed again I believe folks would have started murmuring more than they have been behind the scenes.

That is why I posted above that I thought it was pretty big for Lloyd to have made it past that.

Fact: Gonzaga (guess who was the assistant) andy Houston (four) entered this NCAA tournament with an active streak of two or more Sweet 16s in a row. Tommy has made it two out of 3. The game is not the same as it was 4 years ago.

[Winger]

It may be helpful for you to understand that until very recently, Gonzaga’s/Few’s/Lloyd’s LACK of NCAA tournament success was an issue for those that care about these kinds of things. Losing ahead of seed-expectation, losing almost every NCAA tournament game it played to a highly seeded opponent, never making a Final Four, etc. In that regard, Gonzaga plays into this issue for Lloyd at Arizona negatively.

I am going to exit here, as we are discussing something that is 1) speculation and 2) a negative and 3) didn’t happen lol, and I feel like I am littering.

[Fishclamps]

I do understand failing to live up to expectations every year would eventually wear real thin, I just think it's laughable that in year 3 we would need to be worried about that.

Don't get me wrong, if he continues to shit the bed in the tournament you'll know he hit his ceiling and it's time to move on. I would just probably give him a little more time before I started to be worried about it if I was a booster.

[Chicat]

I think it just depends on the players you get when it comes to Euros. You can say most aren't built for the physicality of the American game but Pelle sure as hell is built like a tank.

There’s a foreignness factor with Euros too. With a language/accent barrier I would bet there are some older people with deep pockets who love to hobnob with the team who might be thinking “damn kids can’t get out of the first round and on top of that I can’t understand half what they’re saying” and it may contribute to their dim-witted narrow-minded view of Tommy and the team and what it takes to put a winning squad on the court.

Winning cures all that bullshit though as Winger points out. Get us to a Final Four and no one will care if these kids are big green men from Mars.

[TheCat]

It may be helpful for you to understand that until very recently, Gonzaga’s/Few’s/Lloyd’s LACK of NCAA tournament success was an issue for those that care about these kinds of things. Losing ahead of seed-expectation, losing almost every NCAA tournament game it played to a highly seeded opponent, never making a Final Four, etc. In that regard, Gonzaga plays into this issue for Lloyd at Arizona negatively.

I am going to exit here, as we are discussing something that is 1) speculation and 2) a negative and 3) didn’t happen lol, and I feel like I am littering.

So if losing to a lower seed is the issue then Coach K and Self would be fired. If Gonzaga plays into the narrative then I guess we don't want to play in a lot of championship games. It is a bad narrative to have and the only idiots that can make it live in the bluegrass state.

[Postmaster]

It may be helpful for you to understand that until very recently, Gonzaga’s/Few’s/Lloyd’s LACK of NCAA tournament success was an issue for those that care about these kinds of things. Losing ahead of seed-expectation, losing almost every NCAA tournament game it played to a highly seeded opponent, never making a Final Four, etc. In that regard, Gonzaga plays into this issue for Lloyd at Arizona negatively.

I am going to exit here, as we are discussing something that is 1) speculation and 2) a negative and 3) didn’t happen lol, and I feel like I am littering.

So if losing to a lower seed is the issue then Coach K and Self would be fired. If Gonzaga plays into the narrative then I guess we don't want to play in a lot of championship games. It is a bad narrative to have and the only idiots that can make it live in the bluegrass state.

Those guys have rings, unfortunately.

[RondaeShimmy]

It may be helpful for you to understand that until very recently, Gonzaga’s/Few’s/Lloyd’s LACK of NCAA tournament success was an issue for those that care about these kinds of things. Losing ahead of seed-expectation, losing almost every NCAA tournament game it played to a highly seeded opponent, never making a Final Four, etc. In that regard, Gonzaga plays into this issue for Lloyd at Arizona negatively.

I am going to exit here, as we are discussing something that is 1) speculation and 2) a negative and 3) didn’t happen lol, and I feel like I am littering.

For Few and Gonzaga, what is fairly recently for you?

They made 9 S16 in a row. 5 E8s in that stretch

[Postmaster]

I think it just depends on the players you get when it comes to Euros. You can say most aren't built for the physicality of the American game but Pelle sure as hell is built like a tank.

There’s a foreignness factor with Euros too. With a language/accent barrier I would bet there are some older people with deep pockets who love to hobnob with the team who might be thinking “damn kids can’t get out of the first round and on top of that I can’t understand half what they’re saying” and it may contribute to their dim-witted narrow-minded view of Tommy and the team and what it takes to put a winning squad on the court.

Winning cures all that bullshit though as Winger points out. Get us to a Final Four and no one will care if these kids are big green men from Mars.

Also,
Everyone was used to CSM pulling in 4-5 star guys from North America . Then he started having issues recruiting due to FESPN. So he pivoted to high quality Euros. CTL takes over, a guy who already likes Euros, and then loses to 2 lower ranked teams. Perfect storm for people to be uneasy with Euros.

I don’t think anyone is trying to run CTL out of town.

[RawleArenas]

I think it just depends on the players you get when it comes to Euros. You can say most aren't built for the physicality of the American game but Pelle sure as hell is built like a tank.

The thing with Tommy is that he casts too wide a net with his international recruiting. It's his crutch, his security blanket. Case in point, I can't think of anyone on this board who consistently complained about Dusan, Lauri and Tubelis (tournament notwithstanding). You have to be selective in who you pick because recruiting misses can set you back for years. There's too big a gap with the level of physicality, aggressiveness and athleticism in American hoops.

I would say that there are only a handful of international players every year (maybe less) that can make the transition on day one. Lauri was one of them. Lloyd's gonna have to retool his model because he won't be able to use his farm system in the Big 12.

[arizonawildcats]

Tommy also recruited Sabonis who took two years to really take off at Gonzaga and is now killing it in the NBA.

[RondaeShimmy]

I think it just depends on the players you get when it comes to Euros. You can say most aren't built for the physicality of the American game but Pelle sure as hell is built like a tank.

The thing with Tommy is that he casts too wide a net with his international recruiting. It's his crutch, his security blanket. Case in point, I can't think of anyone on this board who consistently complained about Dusan, Lauri and Tubelis (tournament notwithstanding). You have to be selective in who you pick because recruiting misses can set you back for years. There's too big a gap with the level of physicality, aggressiveness and athleticism in American hoops.

I would say that there are only a handful of international players every year (maybe less) that can make the transition on day one. Lauri was one of them. Lloyd's gonna have to retool his model because he won't be able to use his farm system in the Big 12.

Don't understand the obsession with recruiting anymore. Recruits matter less and less every year as upperclassmen have been dominating the tournament over these last few years. Look at Kentucky. Tommy has a pretty good class coming, all American kids, but don't get too excited about it because the likelihood of instant high impact is very small.

It's all about grad transfers now. Grown men are dominating these past few years. We should actually be less reliant on recruiting from now on.

[Fishclamps]

Yeah except once all those covid kids are out of the system it'll probably go back to how it was in regards to team makeup

[RondaeShimmy]

Yeah except once all those covid kids are out of the system it'll probably go back to how it was in regards to team makeup

Not with NIL, kids are staying longer. Look at Love, he would've already entered the NBA draft and not gotten drafted and been in the G league or something.

[Catintheheat]

The best coaches were always going after the top rated talent, but that hasn't been working, as John Calipari is starting to realize. The transfer portal is important, but recruiting players who want to follow the process is important too.

Find recruits who are patient, with a desire to develop first. Not ones who desire to jump to the NBA right away. How many times have we seen players stop playing team ball and want to showcase their skills to scouts. Winning is secondary. It might take a couple of years to develop into a good player. That is the way college basketball used to be. And if we return to this model, basketball will become more enjoyable again.

[RondaeShimmy]

Would you guys rather have Cody Williams, top 5-10 recruit, Kwame Evans, top 20 recruit, or Keshad Johnson for one year? (Both of these kids turned Tommy down last year)

[Chicat]

I think it just depends on the players you get when it comes to Euros. You can say most aren't built for the physicality of the American game but Pelle sure as hell is built like a tank.

The thing with Tommy is that he casts too wide a net with his international recruiting. It's his crutch, his security blanket. Case in point, I can't think of anyone on this board who consistently complained about Dusan, Lauri and Tubelis (tournament notwithstanding). You have to be selective in who you pick because recruiting misses can set you back for years. There's too big a gap with the level of physicality, aggressiveness and athleticism in American hoops.

I would say that there are only a handful of international players every year (maybe less) that can make the transition on day one. Lauri was one of them. Lloyd's gonna have to retool his model because he won't be able to use his farm system in the Big 12.

Don't understand the obsession with recruiting anymore. Recruits matter less and less every year as upperclassmen have been dominating the tournament over these last few years. Look at Kentucky. Tommy has a pretty good class coming, all American kids, but don't get too excited about it because the likelihood of instant high impact is very small.

It's all about grad transfers now. Grown men are dominating these past few years. We should actually be less reliant on recruiting from now on.

This is true. UNC’s average age is basically the same as the OKC Thunder’s (around 22.5 years old).

[Beachcat97]

I think it just depends on the players you get when it comes to Euros. You can say most aren't built for the physicality of the American game but Pelle sure as hell is built like a tank.

The thing with Tommy is that he casts too wide a net with his international recruiting. It's his crutch, his security blanket. Case in point, I can't think of anyone on this board who consistently complained about Dusan, Lauri and Tubelis (tournament notwithstanding). You have to be selective in who you pick because recruiting misses can set you back for years. There's too big a gap with the level of physicality, aggressiveness and athleticism in American hoops.

I would say that there are only a handful of international players every year (maybe less) that can make the transition on day one. Lauri was one of them. Lloyd's gonna have to retool his model because he won't be able to use his farm system in the Big 12.

Don't understand the obsession with recruiting anymore. Recruits matter less and less every year as upperclassmen have been dominating the tournament over these last few years. Look at Kentucky. Tommy has a pretty good class coming, all American kids, but don't get too excited about it because the likelihood of instant high impact is very small.

It's all about grad transfers now. Grown men are dominating these past few years. We should actually be less reliant on recruiting from now on.

This is true. UNC’s average age is basically the same as the OKC Thunder’s (around 22.5 years old).

If we do face them, this could be significant considering out starting PG is barely old enough for his bar mitzvah.

[Beachcat97]

Would you guys rather have Cody Williams, top 5-10 recruit, Kwame Evans, top 20 recruit, or Keshad Johnson for one year? (Both of these kids turned Tommy down last year)

Feel like this is virtually a rhetorical question, but Keshad. No question.

[Chicat]

If we do face them, this could be significant considering out starting PG is barely old enough for his bar mitzvah.

Not according to the fake ID he showed that Vegas pit boss.

[Beachcat97]

The best coaches were always going after the top rated talent, but that hasn't been working, as John Calipari is starting to realize. The transfer portal is important, but recruiting players who want to follow the process is important too.

Calipari's time has passed. He's gotten increasingly peevish and ineffective recently, and I gotta think that's taking some wind out of his team's sails here and there. Certainly in March. He should be fishing and golfing, not humiliating 19 year olds.

UK needs to do what Duke did: hire a young coach (one of their own or an up and comer somewhere else) and let the guy usher in a new generation of UK hoops. They'll always get talent, but Calipari's no longer the guy to get them to a Final Four. His best college coaching days are behind him, imo.

[Beachcat97]

If we do face them, this could be significant considering out starting PG is barely old enough for his bar mitzvah.

Not according to the fake ID he showed that Vegas pit boss.

I'm gonna take a flyer on young Kylan. His play hasn't been at the level we need, but he's a talented player and has it in him to regroup and contribute this week.

[TheCat]

I think it just depends on the players you get when it comes to Euros. You can say most aren't built for the physicality of the American game but Pelle sure as hell is built like a tank.

The thing with Tommy is that he casts too wide a net with his international recruiting. It's his crutch, his security blanket. Case in point, I can't think of anyone on this board who consistently complained about Dusan, Lauri and Tubelis (tournament notwithstanding). You have to be selective in who you pick because recruiting misses can set you back for years. There's too big a gap with the level of physicality, aggressiveness and athleticism in American hoops.

I would say that there are only a handful of international players every year (maybe less) that can make the transition on day one. Lauri was one of them. Lloyd's gonna have to retool his model because he won't be able to use his farm system in the Big 12.

Don't understand the obsession with recruiting anymore. Recruits matter less and less every year as upperclassmen have been dominating the tournament over these last few years. Look at Kentucky. Tommy has a pretty good class coming, all American kids, but don't get too excited about it because the likelihood of instant high impact is very small.

It's all about grad transfers now. Grown men are dominating these past few years. We should actually be less reliant on recruiting from now on.

Slight correction not all Tommy's recruits are American. One is from NBA Africa I think. I agree that portal players are much more productive than freshman. There was a comparison of top freshman to portal guys on who is scoring more than 10 points a game. By far it was the portal guys. I think it will always be a mixture but the portal allows you to rebuild a team overnight. Just look at us. I think the results of our current portal guys will make us attractive to others and I think that is important.

[TheCat]

Yeah except once all those covid kids are out of the system it'll probably go back to how it was in regards to team makeup

Not with NIL, kids are staying longer. Look at Love, he would've already entered the NBA draft and not gotten drafted and been in the G league or something.

Well the G league is gone after this year so there might be more for the pickings.
"The NBA announced on Thursday that it is shutting down the G League Ignite program after only four seasons. It's been more than a disappointing showing in the 2023-24 season with the Ignite currently 4-28."
I wonder if that kid (guard) we were chasing from NBA Africa that decide to go to the G league Ignite is back on the burner. Can't remember his name.

[UAEebs86]

Yeah except once all those covid kids are out of the system it'll probably go back to how it was in regards to team makeup

Not with NIL, kids are staying longer. Look at Love, he would've already entered the NBA draft and not gotten drafted and been in the G league or something.

Well the G league is gone after this year so there might be more for the pickings.
"The NBA announced on Thursday that it is shutting down the G League Ignite program after only four seasons. It's been more than a disappointing showing in the 2023-24 season with the Ignite currently 4-28."
I wonder if that kid (guard) we were chasing from NBA Africa that decide to go to the G league Ignite is back on the burner. Can't remember his name.

I don't think it's the whole league, just that one team. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[84Cat]

Yeah except once all those covid kids are out of the system it'll probably go back to how it was in regards to team makeup

Not with NIL, kids are staying longer. Look at Love, he would've already entered the NBA draft and not gotten drafted and been in the G league or something.

Well the G league is gone after this year so there might be more for the pickings.
"The NBA announced on Thursday that it is shutting down the G League Ignite program after only four seasons. It's been more than a disappointing showing in the 2023-24 season with the Ignite currently 4-28."
I wonder if that kid (guard) we were chasing from NBA Africa that decide to go to the G league Ignite is back on the burner. Can't remember his name.

I don't think it's the whole league, just that one team. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Yep, just Ignite

With the rise of NIL and the transfer portal in college basketball, the need for the Ignite developmental team was "eliminated."

[TheCat]

You’re moving the goalposts again. The issue isn’t “contributors”. The issue is: lack of ncaa tournament performance coupled the very unconventional roster composition when it comes to teams that have made F4s and won natties. When the AD is looking for folks to commit to $25,000 a year times 10 years this is something I have heard.

Again, getting past week 1 was helpful in this regard, imo, I think.

So how am I moving the goal post? I just showed you a team that made the final four that started 3 foreign players and one key reserve. You're the one that made the point that foreign players being an "unconventional roster composition" was an issue. Gonzaga when they had Rui was a team that had foreign contributors that made a final four.

Since it is important getting past the first weekend isn't 2/3 of the time Lloyd has been there good enough? Why do you think they thought that was critical to Tommy when donors loved Sean Miller even when his reputation took a hit job and we didn't get to participate in the tourney?

In my experience donors contribute because they have a connection or love for the university or the community. If that wasn't true we would not have a single contributor to the football team before last year and as you know we had major contributors (Coles for one) when we were shit. If they are only asking for $25K/year for major donors I want my $10K back for a bench 15 years ago.

You move the posts by taking a very specific factor — lack of NCAA tournament success — which, when coupled with another specific factor — the unconventional roster of 8 or more foreign born players — and respond with a bunch of things that are not related to either topic. You double down on that by noting that 1 team has been successful one time (that Gonzaga NC team did not have a bunch of Euros, they had 1, Premek, and another guy who played 10 minutes).

Not sure what Gonzaga team that Premek was on but the one I was talking about had Rui Hachimura, Przemeh Karnowshi (should recognize his name), Killian Tille and Dustin Triano. So not sure how that is doubling down when I said the majority of teams don't have many foreign players. I have named two off the top of my head that had many Euro's/foreign players that went to the final four. Not just on the team but some that were significant players. I think the boosters you are talking to want the old Indiana Team with Ken Benson. Euro are dominating the mock NBA early picks and you might have heard of the one that is currently with the Spurs (although no college team).

[Frybry02]

I believe you may be combing some Gonzaga years together.

The 2016-2017 Gonzaga team had 1 main euro contributor in Karnowski and tillie averaged less than 13 minutes a game.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sc ... /2017.html

[dmjcat]

Yeah except once all those covid kids are out of the system it'll probably go back to how it was in regards to team makeup

Not with NIL, kids are staying longer. Look at Love, he would've already entered the NBA draft and not gotten drafted and been in the G league or something.

Well the G league is gone after this year so there might be more for the pickings.
"The NBA announced on Thursday that it is shutting down the G League Ignite program after only four seasons. It's been more than a disappointing showing in the 2023-24 season with the Ignite currently 4-28."
I wonder if that kid (guard) we were chasing from NBA Africa that decide to go to the G league Ignite is back on the burner. Can't remember his name.

I believe this is the guy you are referring to???

https://gleague.nba.com/player/1641823/thierry-darlan

[TheCat]

Yep that is the guy. Thanks dmjcat.

[wyo-cat]

Hoops alumni not happy with Tommy hire….

[Merkin]

They wanted Damon? 6 years as a head coach and one winning season and no post season tourneys. No thanks.

Although I would take him over Pastner who made the tourney with 2 different teams.

I know Sean Elliott does not watch UA basketball, but he sure approved of Lloyd during his first season.

https://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildca ... b2ea3.html

[Winger]

Hoops alumni not happy with Tommy hire….

Thanks for the link.

It wasn’t all of their own doing, and I respect their angst at the time and their standing to voice that; but the Arizona greats hadn’t been around the program in a while, and never understood that none of them had the chops required to be Arizona’s head coach.

I felt Robbins’ interviews of the Arizona greats also were for show, and a bad idea, but it wasn’t Rooney Rule, it was Olson Rule. Not as bad an idea as interviewing Mussleman but a bad idea none the less.

Lloyd checked every box aside from the head coaching experience one. West coast coach. Principal member of a staff with well more than a decade of elite performance. Recruiting resume that was elite and included American as well as foreign players. Was going to run the kind of system that Arizona fans would enjoy. No skeletons. Good in front of the microphone. Would honor the tradition and rebuild the family atmosphere that had been lacking for about 15 years. Young enough to withstand any hostile NCAA penalties (an important factor for Robbins).

Obviously no one could have predicted the number of wins and the immediate and sustained success but you give a guy like Lloyd a program like Arizona and you’re going to succeed far more often that not.

Which is something the Arizona greats either never understood or set aside as they lobbied for one of their own.

[pc in NM]

Hoops alumni not happy with Tommy hire….

Thanks for the link.

It wasn’t all of their own doing, and I respect their angst at the time and their standing to voice that; but the Arizona greats hadn’t been around the program in a while, and never understood that none of them had the chops required to be Arizona’s head coach.

I felt Robbins’ interviews of the Arizona greats also were for show, and a bad idea, but it wasn’t Rooney Rule, it was Olson Rule. Not as bad an idea as interviewing Mussleman but a bad idea none the less.

Lloyd checked every box aside from the head coaching experience one. West coast coach. Principal member of a staff with well more than a decade of elite performance. Recruiting resume that was elite and included American as well as foreign players. Was going to run the kind of system that Arizona fans would enjoy. No skeletons. Good in front of the microphone. Would honor the tradition and rebuild the family atmosphere that had been lacking for about 15 years. Young enough to withstand any hostile NCAA penalties (an important factor for Robbins).

Obviously no one could have predicted the number of wins and the immediate and sustained success but you give a guy like Lloyd a program like Arizona and you’re going to succeed far more often that not.

Which is something the Arizona greats either never understood or set aside as they lobbied for one of their own.

WTF!!! Robins & Heeke...

... What could possibly have gone wrong???

[Winger]

WTF!!! Robins & Heeke...

... What could possibly have gone wrong???

Imo coaching searches are a scoreboard game and you need to leave all of the “process was screwed up”, “they lucked in to him/her”, “how could you consider/interview Coach Nochops?”, etc.

But to answer your question, while it would have taken multiple mill more than Arizona was offering to nab him, a lot of things could have gone wrong if they hired a bad egg clown like Mussleman.