General Malaise and Complaining about the Football Program

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scumdevils86
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Re: Fire RR

Post by scumdevils86 »

PHXCATS wrote:
Merkin wrote:
scumdevils86 wrote:uuuhhhh have you seen qbs under rich rod here? they all eventually get hurt. usually to the point that they can't function anymore. love tate. i just hope he can last.
Rather be on the bench at Baylor than starting for RichRod.

Image
He lost his job at Arizona so he would not have been the starter and he was the starter at Baylor until he was benched for his play again.

Usually I save the swings and misses for the twins but I almost had to do it here.
:lol: what now? machina is probably another one who thinks Dawkins was doing a "good job"
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Re: Fire RR

Post by zonagrad »

Arizona is the type of team where 1 or 2 players make a world of difference. With a healthy Tate, we're 6-0. Injuries are always impact a team like Arizona. Look at Nick Wilson. We don't have the luxury of depth at any position. The challenge for RR is to limit the hits Tate takes. His presence on the field and attention he gets should open up plays for everyone else. And Tate needs to be smart, too. He's our Cam Newton.

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Re: Fire RR

Post by azcat49 »

scumdevils86 wrote:I want to live in EVcats world haha.

What exactly did EV say that wasn't in agreement with your thoughts on the team. I thought he was spot on.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by scumdevils86 »

That Dawkins is a good qb?
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Re: Fire RR

Post by wyo-cat »

scumdevils86 wrote:That Dawkins is a good qb?
He said good "backup QB" and "capable" of relief.

Go back and read his post before you go off on EV.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by scumdevils86 »

I'm not going off on anyone. We aren't beating any teams with a pulse if Dawkins is back behind center. That should be obvious to all.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by wyo-cat »

He knows the offense and is a capable backup. He looked like he was in good spirits during the game and was supporting KT. No one is calling for Dawk to start.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by scumdevils86 »

Which is a good thing, better than him sulking. But if (and more likely when) Tate is hurt, the winning stops.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by Sid »

scumdevils86 wrote:uuuhhhh have you seen qbs under rich rod here? they all eventually get hurt. usually to the point that they can't function anymore. love tate. i just hope he can last.
I agree. I also am overly optimistic that someone will tell him to tone it down some as not one of Rich's former starting QB's while in Tucson have played or will play in the NFL other than a healthy Tate. This kid stays healthy and keeps this train rolling, the sky is the limit!

Trust me, I cringe every time he takes a hit. Again, I will remain hopeful he stays healthy and we reap ALL the rewards that come our way...
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Re: Fire RR

Post by Merkin »

Apparently Tate had a shoulder injury which held him out earlier in the season. He was medically cleared for the Utah game, but was still in a great deal of pain.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by EVCat »

scumdevils86 wrote:That Dawkins is a good qb?
He is a good back up.

And he is. He has game experience, has had success at times, and is liked by his team.

Not sure what you think most teams roll out as a back up, but having a junior former starter who can run the whole playbook and is an above average runner in a running offense is a good backup situation. If we get in 2nd and 3rd and long, he is trouble because he is not a good passer. His decision making is far too slow in the passing game, and you mix that with a lack of confidence, and that is where he had all kinds of problems. But he was rather effective with starting RBs available in the basics of this offense, and that is what you hope for in a back up. He never should have been the starter here, and it wasn't ever supposed to happen. But Tate was not ready last year (we saw that) and was hurt and ineffective early this year, and not enough of an upgrade with his injury to put him out there in front of Dawkins. He maybe should have started the Colorado game, but that just isn't how a single team in the world works, where a coach benches a starter for a backup who is coming off injury and hasn't done anything special yet, either.

I won't pull the game of some people on here, with the "I know more about the game with a severe head injury than you do healthy" crap, but I will say I am not stupid, nor am I wrong here. You seem to always be mad, with the "we suck, you suck, he sucks" edgy shit. But if you can't see that he has value as a back up in a run first read option, but that he never should have been the starter, and there is a big difference there, I guess we will always disagree...
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Re: Fire RR

Post by ChooChooCat »

No surprise here, but I agree completely with EV. My sole wish is RR being capable of or pursusing heavily a QB who is a plus passer even if he's a bit limited athletically. Instead we have Joiner who is of the same cloth as Tate/Dawkins. Maybe 2019 will bring us the opportunity to have one on roster.

I'm glad we don't have to depend on a Burmeister this year, but man it'd sure be nice to have him or someone similar on the bench redshirting and developing.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by 3rdand25 »

RR deserved this full season. He isn't going anywhere, unless he flees to greener pastures. The team is improving and there is hope. But,

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/football/ ... la-dawkins" target="_blank

Is this believable? A player is too hurt to play, but RR plays coy and leaves him off the injury report; letting the fans who dare question him afterwards to swallow that reasoning? How about this coach; you don't know how fast your quarterbacks are? Pardon me, but shouldn't you know? Buy a stopwatch, and time them in the 40. Is this WV humor, or is it arrogance/insulting everyone else's intelligence? This, for me anyway, in a nutshell, is why RR is a difficult coach to embrace as a fan.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by SCCats »

3rdand25 wrote:RR deserved this full season. He isn't going anywhere, unless he flees to greener pastures. The team is improving and there is hope. But,

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/football/ ... la-dawkins" target="_blank

Is this believable? A player is too hurt to play, but RR plays coy and leaves him off the injury report; letting the fans who dare question him afterwards to swallow that reasoning? How about this coach; you don't know how fast your quarterbacks are? Pardon me, but shouldn't you know? Buy a stopwatch, and time them in the 40. Is this WV humor, or is it arrogance/insulting everyone else's intelligence? This, for me anyway, in a nutshell, is why RR is a difficult coach to embrace as a fan.
Yeah it sounds like a lot of BS to me. And I think the BS gets exposed at Colorado. Clearly Tate was healthy at Colorado. So why wasn't he starting?

Rich got it wrong. The question for me is was it intentional or accidental.

Neither or which, of course, are good.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by azgreg »

He addressed this in today's presser.....sorta.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by azcat49 »

Not sure if Tate can do Tate things in practice with a red jersey on. I think RR loves him some Dawkins who will simply run the play as it is called. Tate does some improv that I bet doesn't sit well with the guy calling the plays.

Smith wanted Tate as did the players. He is in now and will be for the forsee able future so I don't care about the why's. Just keep doing Tate things and all will be good. The confidence is sky high and we are DANGEROUS
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Re: Fire RR

Post by SCCats »

I don't want to beat this horse too badly, but...
azcat49 wrote:Smith wanted Tate as did the players.
...and why was that? Because they could all see it. And Rich couldn't. Or wouldn't.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by UALoco »

I agree with EV for the most part, just too lazy to type that much. How many teams would be good losing their best QB, not too many. So of course, if KT get's hurt, we'd be in trouble. But then RR gets a pass due to injuries.

Go Cats!! I am loving this season so far.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by Harvey Specter »

EVCat wrote:
scumdevils86 wrote:That Dawkins is a good qb?
He is a good back up.

And he is. He has game experience, has had success at times, and is liked by his team.

Not sure what you think most teams roll out as a back up, but having a junior former starter who can run the whole playbook and is an above average runner in a running offense is a good backup situation. If we get in 2nd and 3rd and long, he is trouble because he is not a good passer. His decision making is far too slow in the passing game, and you mix that with a lack of confidence, and that is where he had all kinds of problems. But he was rather effective with starting RBs available in the basics of this offense, and that is what you hope for in a back up. He never should have been the starter here, and it wasn't ever supposed to happen. But Tate was not ready last year (we saw that) and was hurt and ineffective early this year, and not enough of an upgrade with his injury to put him out there in front of Dawkins. He maybe should have started the Colorado game, but that just isn't how a single team in the world works, where a coach benches a starter for a backup who is coming off injury and hasn't done anything special yet, either.

I won't pull the game of some people on here, with the "I know more about the game with a severe head injury than you do healthy" crap, but I will say I am not stupid, nor am I wrong here. You seem to always be mad, with the "we suck, you suck, he sucks" edgy shit. But if you can't see that he has value as a back up in a run first read option, but that he never should have been the starter, and there is a big difference there, I guess we will always disagree...
Troy Williams. Is a good backup. Dawkins is serviceable.

RR thought he was a good starter... but corcunstances have forced his hand. To our benefit. And ours.

Regardless, things are looking up. It continues, and RR will score the rest of his retention bonus unless he gets someone to offer him a better deal.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by Chicat »

Why is it that RR couldn't see what every even casual fan could? Dawkins, although an electric athlete, had serious issues with accuracy as far as location and velocity.

It only took seeing two passes whipped way over guys heads at 100mph for me to realize that Dawkins hadn't corrected the issues he showed last year. Why was it that it took 8+ weeks for RichRod to realize the same thing?

RR is proving to be a guy who makes a decision and sticks with it no matter how bad the results. That attitude probably served him well at Glenville State and WVU when he was running a system no one else was. But now that he's in a big boy conference and everyone has caught up to his offense, it's a handicap.

A little introspection and willingness to question whether what he feels matches what he's seeing would go a long way toward making him a better coach. But the guy is going on 55 years old. He's probably not changing.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by Merkin »

From posters who know football, it seems Dawkins' issues are with his mechanics and footwork, which you think would have been corrected being this is his 4th year in the program.

He also can't get through his read progressions, which not sure can be corrected.

Maybe he is like Alex Zendejas. Perfect practice player but gets the yips in game situations and forgets all the fundamentals. Tate of course has been compared to Foles many times, a poor practice player but a gamer.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by PHXCATS »

SCCats wrote:
3rdand25 wrote:RR deserved this full season. He isn't going anywhere, unless he flees to greener pastures. The team is improving and there is hope. But,

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/football/ ... la-dawkins" target="_blank

Is this believable? A player is too hurt to play, but RR plays coy and leaves him off the injury report; letting the fans who dare question him afterwards to swallow that reasoning? How about this coach; you don't know how fast your quarterbacks are? Pardon me, but shouldn't you know? Buy a stopwatch, and time them in the 40. Is this WV humor, or is it arrogance/insulting everyone else's intelligence? This, for me anyway, in a nutshell, is why RR is a difficult coach to embrace as a fan.
Yeah it sounds like a lot of BS to me. And I think the BS gets exposed at Colorado. Clearly Tate was healthy at Colorado. So why wasn't he starting?

Rich got it wrong. The question for me is was it intentional or accidental.

Neither or which, of course, are good.
I cannot believe people think RR wants to fail or thinks Tate was better but didn't play him on purpose
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Re: Fire RR

Post by Puerco »

Chicat wrote:Why is it that RR couldn't see what every even casual fan could? Dawkins, although an electric athlete, had serious issues with accuracy as far as location and velocity.

It only took seeing two passes whipped way over guys heads at 100mph for me to realize that Dawkins hadn't corrected the issues he showed last year. Why was it that it took 8+ weeks for RichRod to realize the same thing?

RR is proving to be a guy who makes a decision and sticks with it no matter how bad the results. That attitude probably served him well at Glenville State and WVU when he was running a system no one else was. But now that he's in a big boy conference and everyone has caught up to his offense, it's a handicap.

A little introspection and willingness to question whether what he feels matches what he's seeing would go a long way toward making him a better coach. But the guy is going on 55 years old. He's probably not changing.
I remember some of worrying about that trait in Sean Miller a few years ago. Now only RiseAndFire still does. :lol:
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Re: Fire RR

Post by EVCat »

ChooChooCat wrote:No surprise here, but I agree completely with EV. My sole wish is RR being capable of or pursusing heavily a QB who is a plus passer even if he's a bit limited athletically. Instead we have Joiner who is of the same cloth as Tate/Dawkins. Maybe 2019 will bring us the opportunity to have one on roster.

I'm glad we don't have to depend on a Burmeister this year, but man it'd sure be nice to have him or someone similar on the bench redshirting and developing.
Thanks, and I really thought Matt Scott was the perfect blend QB for his offense. Matt was an above average runner, competitive, liked, and could sling the ball well enough to get a cup of coffee in the NFL training camp world.

Anu had just enough run to work, but got it hit out of him.

The problem is those run/pass QBs who can do both well enough are coveted by everyone.

I was wondering this weekend how different this would be if Burmeister had come. Everyone saying we are lucky Tate got a shot, no...Tate was always going to get a shot this year. Rich Rod has never acted overly attached to Dawkins. He made the pull mid-game a couple of times, which is the most embarrassing thing a QB can suffer. So RR was not ever all in with Dawkins, but if Burmeister had come, would he have gone lab coach and gotten excited with tinkering to bring more passing to the offense. Burmeister is, theoretically, the perfect RR QB.

But when we are done theorizing, Khalil Tate is the perfect QB for RR...
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Re: Fire RR

Post by EVCat »

3rdand25 wrote:RR deserved this full season. He isn't going anywhere, unless he flees to greener pastures. The team is improving and there is hope. But,

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/football/ ... la-dawkins" target="_blank

Is this believable? A player is too hurt to play, but RR plays coy and leaves him off the injury report; letting the fans who dare question him afterwards to swallow that reasoning? How about this coach; you don't know how fast your quarterbacks are? Pardon me, but shouldn't you know? Buy a stopwatch, and time them in the 40. Is this WV humor, or is it arrogance/insulting everyone else's intelligence? This, for me anyway, in a nutshell, is why RR is a difficult coach to embrace as a fan.
It is.

Did you see him vs Houston. Throw, I mean. Go back and watch the pass into the NEZ at the end. It was the kind of INT that only Josh Rosen and pop warner kids throw.

People love an easy narrative (RR is an idiot, didn't see gold in front of him like we did), but Tate did not give anything but flashes before Colorado. And those flashes were of the running kind (trucking a defender here or there), but film also had dangerous passing. He had not separated himself from Dawkins, Dawkins knew more of the offense and was better at his reads, and Tate got dinged up enough to not be comfortable or 100%, but well enough to play if we absolutely HAD to have him play, if we were in a position where it was worth risking him not getting healthy to play him. We didn't have that situation. Utah was the closest, but still...that game disappeared on the final offensive play. Fans can say "put him in, dammit", but if he is hurt enough to be less than 100%, the situation is not the game 7 of the World Series throw on 2 days rest variety, and his position coaches say he isn't ready (this idea of RR holding a huge Xbox controller, scrolling down to put Tate in the game, or missing his 95 rating), and maybe HE said "I can't get my arm around on the throws, coach...I am close".

So RichRod leaves him off the injury report because he is, in fact, our 2nd string QB. He is going to go in if he has to, but we are hoping like hell he doesn't have to and if it was just like a one or two play sub for Dawkins helmet or something minor, other Tate would go in. So he is #2, and he is not listed on the report because if he does get in, and there is a statistically solid chance it will happen for a #2, you do NOT want that team knowing what to attack. Is it a leg...? Jump the handoff. Is it an arm? Load up underneath, he can't get it up and over. Right shoulder? Make sure to get helmet to shoulder. Did you see what Utah did to Anu two years ago?

This shit isn't rocket science. We had a #2 QB who had some significant hurts but not injury that would make us go to our #3 if it was a tight game or long term. So he doesn't get announced on the injury report with identification of his problem. The opposition doesn't know what his weakness night be. Why the fuck are we going to tell them what it was? Tate had not done anything to suggest he should play in front of Dawkins while hurt, and the STAFF (and maybe player) determined he wasn't ready. None of us know what the Colorado pre-game was like...maybe he gave/got the 100% go, so it was in the plan to get Tate a couple of series in the 2nd qtr to see how he was doing. Not many coaches around the country who pull an upperclassman starter pre-game for a soph coming off injury who has never been enough clearly better than the quy in front of him. But Dawkins went out with a long term (more than a play or 2) injury, the game was essential, and Tate went in. And he was clearly ready.

Rich Rodriquez has done this for years. He's been successful in this game. He has been rather successful in this offense and identifying QBs to play in this offense. You could even give him credit for being the father of this offense. HE has done this well for years. So have his staff. This idea that he just didn't evaluate his #2 when his #1 was struggling and didn't play him because (???) and his staff was telling him to play the backup and RR was just a statue of NO in the face of all the obvious YES...that is much more of an unrealistic tale than the easy and correct explanation that Tate was starting to show more than Dawkins, got dinged in a way that limited him playing the QB position, looked bad at the end of Houston, got sat to heal with the intention of getting him to 100% or close to and not just keep playing him hurt and aggravating it, but he WAS in reality the #2 if a long-term sub was needed, so he wasn't on the injury report because the staff didn't wan the opposition to know he was limited/what they could hurt if he came in.

It takes a much weirder and unrealistic path to say RR just forgot Tate, had this talent and ignored it, even when Dawkins struggled, and never played him even though he was getting series' from the 1st game of the year...that magically dried up even though he was healthy.

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Re: Fire RR

Post by EVCat »

Merkin wrote:

He also can't get through his read progressions, which not sure can be corrected.
Bingo. The footwork is correctable, but like in basketball, sometimes changing a lifetime of mistakes on a shot just makes the shot worse.

Brandon is a bright kid. Maybe too bright, if you know what I mean. It is bad news to think on a field. And if he is thinking about his feet, and doing what he needs to with body, and he is slow to read, you are only slowing him down further with the footwork. He has to be confident and has to see things quicker first, and those may never come. He also has a lengthy delivery...lanky. It causes the ball to sail on him and gives the defenders that .2 to break...not always on an INT, but to be there to stop the pass design from breaking into open space.

From what I have seen, he thrives in the underdog role...when he comes in with low expectations, he is looser, and plays with less tension. This allows him to have these micro-successes, like coming in vs ASU in 2015, because the expectation level was low.

I may be hypothesizing too much here. I am sure Brandon thinks, as he reads all of our posts and responds in his diary "screw that EVCat...I am a warrior...I am ready to ball." I hope he does. But he looks uncomfortable when not running. And the passing game can be a mindfuck...the good defenses make it that way. Josh Rosen still can't diagnose a D and he is a 1st round pick (maybe not anymore)...
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Re: Fire RR

Post by EVCat »

Harvey Specter wrote:Troy Williams. Is a good backup. Dawkins is serviceable.
Troy Williams is a dream backup for teams not named BamaOhioStateetc. Senior leader, proven, etc..
Harvey Specter wrote:RR thought he was a good starter... but corcunstances have forced his hand. To our benefit. And ours.
I doubt that. Anu Solomon was supposed to be the starter. A couple of other QBs who have been in and out of the program were more likely thought of as good backups to possibly start before Dawkins. Anu Solomon a freshman AA that led the team to the Fiesta Bowl was handing off to a Freshman 4 star back in Nick Wilson. QB was in a good place. In Anu's Soph year, we signed a few QBs, including 4 star dual threat QB Brandon Dawkins. But Anu was still young...we were bringing in QBs but they would have to be great to beat Anu out (remember the recruiting was happening when Anu was fine). Don't forget Jerrard Randall, an LSU transfer and elite recruit that could run a little bit of dual threat spread option, too, but wasn't a starter level player for sure. He had some success as a back up, but was just that...a back up. Like Dawkins.

So, with Anu a Junior and Dawkins a Freshman, RichRod also brought in some practice fodder/local help that was worth checking out in Werlinger and the other guy. We were light, though, with high level recruit/transfer Connor Brewer had a cup of coffee and left. So, with Anu, Dawkins, and some practice depth, RichRod ALSO signed this kid named Khalil Tate, a 4 star that he saw as a QB when no one else in the elite ranks did. RichRod saw him as a perfect fit for the offense, much like Braxton Burmeister. So RichRod has this covered...he might not have the D all sorted, but his QB situation was set up to be elite. But Tate was really young...17 as a freshman. He was supposed to redshirt last year. But we, at one point, played our tight end at QB because EVERYONE played QB last year. That means that Tate is now an 18 year old sophomore. It sucks we couldn't get the redshirt on him, but still...RichRod offered this kid as a QB because he saw a perfect QB for his system. We were supposed to be in good shape with Anu, Randall giving way to Brewer giving way to Tate or Dawkins....but still, Dawkins was never a central part of the planning. He is a nice kid, but was NEVER supposed to be the starter here. To add to the depth, we had a verbal from Braxton Burmeister, a high 4 star dual threat QB enrolling early (like Tate) and ready by this year, which we were now starting to find out was a big deal, that ANU was not going to make it. I mean, figure this is 2015/2016 thinking and reacting. In 2015, we thought we had Anu, in 2016 we had whoever could stand on their own two feet without collapsing. An awful season, but coming into 2017, we were going to be young with Anu's collapse. He was reasonable to expect to start for 4 years, but by 2016, we had a crisis with our upperclassman former freshman AA QB..he was mentally gone, then actually transferred. That is going to hurt a program...But still, we were going to have two elite two-way QBs in waiting, both 4-stars out of high school and even higher rated when rated against Dual Threat QBs (Burmeister and Tate, with Dawkins in the mix as well, and Baseball Tate maybe a lucky catch, maybe now).

So we lost our expected 4 year starter, but still recruited behind him enough to not have a disaster in 2017. We were just going to be very young at QB. You just don't expect senior QBs to leave when they started as a Fresh and Soph. But he wasn't able to run this offense any longer. So we had Burmeister, Tate, and Dawkins.

Then we lost Burmeister.

RR played Dawkins in relief of Anu last year, but never thought Dawkins was a good starter, just the best that we had at any given time, which was true through last season (Tate was awful last year when he played) and was true when considering injury this year through Colorado.

Tate came in against Houston. And looked pretty good...then looked AWFUL. But Rich Rod did put him into the game. Rich Rod was going to continue putting a healthy or, as Houston showed, even unhealthy Tate, because he did not, in fact, feel confident about Dawkins at all. But, yes, the injury forced his hand...maybe 7 minutes faster, maybe 70 minutes, maybe a game faster...all dependent on what Dawkins did.

But RichRod has not been shy about pulling Dawkins.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by chiefzona »

Dawkins will probably transfer after this season anyway. This is all just a ruffling of peacock feathers and a salsa dance. Trust the RR process.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by catinfl »

chiefzona wrote:Dawkins will probably transfer after this season anyway. This is all just a ruffling of peacock feathers and a salsa dance. Trust the RR process.
eh, maybe. What i've heard is he's a real team guy and there wouldn't be that big of a market for him. If I was him I'd stay and be the #2 because Tate could get injured any second with the way he runs.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by azcat49 »

I certainly wouldn't blame him if he left but his future is not as a QB if he thinks he will be playing football. He will be a very good broadcaster or color commentator IMO. Very personable.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by wyo-cat »

catinfl wrote:
chiefzona wrote:Dawkins will probably transfer after this season anyway. This is all just a ruffling of peacock feathers and a salsa dance. Trust the RR process.
eh, maybe. What i've heard is he's a real team guy and there wouldn't be that big of a market for him. If I was him I'd stay and be the #2 because Tate could get injured any second with the way he runs.
I'd love to see Dawk in the slot as a receiver, with his size and strength, look out. Tate and Dawk ripping 'em up!
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Re: Fire RR

Post by btfd16 »

EVCat you're killing it. Not much more to be said. Friends with several equipment managers, training and video staff who all say Brandon was more confident and better in fall camp. 1000% agree with the red jersey not letting him showcase his full range. Khalil got hurt, could've started CU, but there was still uncertainty in pulling Brandon for an 18 year old kid off an injury. It is unfortunate we did not get to see him for the whole season, but Brandon was always going to be on a short leash with a healthy Khalil.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by 3rdand25 »

EVCat wrote:
3rdand25 wrote:RR deserved this full season. He isn't going anywhere, unless he flees to greener pastures. The team is improving and there is hope. But,

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/football/ ... la-dawkins" target="_blank

Is this believable? A player is too hurt to play, but RR plays coy and leaves him off the injury report; letting the fans who dare question him afterwards to swallow that reasoning? How about this coach; you don't know how fast your quarterbacks are? Pardon me, but shouldn't you know? Buy a stopwatch, and time them in the 40. Is this WV humor, or is it arrogance/insulting everyone else's intelligence? This, for me anyway, in a nutshell, is why RR is a difficult coach to embrace as a fan.
It is.

Did you see him vs Houston. Throw, I mean. Go back and watch the pass into the NEZ at the end. It was the kind of INT that only Josh Rosen and pop warner kids throw.

People love an easy narrative (RR is an idiot, didn't see gold in front of him like we did), but Tate did not give anything but flashes before Colorado. And those flashes were of the running kind (trucking a defender here or there), but film also had dangerous passing. He had not separated himself from Dawkins, Dawkins knew more of the offense and was better at his reads, and Tate got dinged up enough to not be comfortable or 100%, but well enough to play if we absolutely HAD to have him play, if we were in a position where it was worth risking him not getting healthy to play him. We didn't have that situation. Utah was the closest, but still...that game disappeared on the final offensive play. Fans can say "put him in, dammit", but if he is hurt enough to be less than 100%, the situation is not the game 7 of the World Series throw on 2 days rest variety, and his position coaches say he isn't ready (this idea of RR holding a huge Xbox controller, scrolling down to put Tate in the game, or missing his 95 rating), and maybe HE said "I can't get my arm around on the throws, coach...I am close".

So RichRod leaves him off the injury report because he is, in fact, our 2nd string QB. He is going to go in if he has to, but we are hoping like hell he doesn't have to and if it was just like a one or two play sub for Dawkins helmet or something minor, other Tate would go in. So he is #2, and he is not listed on the report because if he does get in, and there is a statistically solid chance it will happen for a #2, you do NOT want that team knowing what to attack. Is it a leg...? Jump the handoff. Is it an arm? Load up underneath, he can't get it up and over. Right shoulder? Make sure to get helmet to shoulder. Did you see what Utah did to Anu two years ago?

This shit isn't rocket science. We had a #2 QB who had some significant hurts but not injury that would make us go to our #3 if it was a tight game or long term. So he doesn't get announced on the injury report with identification of his problem. The opposition doesn't know what his weakness night be. Why the fuck are we going to tell them what it was? Tate had not done anything to suggest he should play in front of Dawkins while hurt, and the STAFF (and maybe player) determined he wasn't ready. None of us know what the Colorado pre-game was like...maybe he gave/got the 100% go, so it was in the plan to get Tate a couple of series in the 2nd qtr to see how he was doing. Not many coaches around the country who pull an upperclassman starter pre-game for a soph coming off injury who has never been enough clearly better than the quy in front of him. But Dawkins went out with a long term (more than a play or 2) injury, the game was essential, and Tate went in. And he was clearly ready.

Rich Rodriquez has done this for years. He's been successful in this game. He has been rather successful in this offense and identifying QBs to play in this offense. You could even give him credit for being the father of this offense. HE has done this well for years. So have his staff. This idea that he just didn't evaluate his #2 when his #1 was struggling and didn't play him because (???) and his staff was telling him to play the backup and RR was just a statue of NO in the face of all the obvious YES...that is much more of an unrealistic tale than the easy and correct explanation that Tate was starting to show more than Dawkins, got dinged in a way that limited him playing the QB position, looked bad at the end of Houston, got sat to heal with the intention of getting him to 100% or close to and not just keep playing him hurt and aggravating it, but he WAS in reality the #2 if a long-term sub was needed, so he wasn't on the injury report because the staff didn't wan the opposition to know he was limited/what they could hurt if he came in.

It takes a much weirder and unrealistic path to say RR just forgot Tate, had this talent and ignored it, even when Dawkins struggled, and never played him even though he was getting series' from the 1st game of the year...that magically dried up even though he was healthy.

Sometimes the correct story is the one right in front of you
Boy are you right with that last statement. It is just as plausible that the coaching staff blew the decision and won't own up to it; they did choose Dawkins over a healthy Tate to start the season. You choose not to see that. I have a hard time believing that Tate suddenly improved while sitting on the bench, holding a clipboard, and nursing his injuries. Whatever dude. Also, you did not mention the "aw shucks we didn't know how fast he was" baloney from the staff. If they didn't know, then they are incompetent coaches. They knew how many pounds he lost off the top of their head, but they don't know the players speed? Tell me another one. As far as RRs level of success, and his genius, I will not even go there. He's our coach, and I hope UA wins out. But I've been following this team for decades and the RR era has not been anything to write home about in conference play.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by tgrumpy2 »

Some of you people act like this is the first time any coach ever missed out on who the best quarterback on their team was. Stoops did it, Tomey did it, Smith did it. I'd bet half the programs in the country have done it at one time or another. But then to push the narrative that RR did it on purpose, that's ....sheesh, I don't even have a word for that.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by azcat49 »

Man who cares why, he is in there now and we are rolling. RR has made a million mistakes and he is going to get bailed out by a wonder boy.

We all knew the wins and losses would take care of RR one way or the other. He found lightning in a bottle. If we run the table and win the south we can look forward to two more years of Tate and hopefully RR can find another great QB
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Re: Fire RR

Post by zonagrad »

tgrumpy2 wrote:Some of you people act like this is the first time any coach ever missed out on who the best quarterback on their team was. Stoops did it, Tomey did it, Smith did it. I'd bet half the programs in the country have done it at one time or another. But then to push the narrative that RR did it on purpose, that's ....sheesh, I don't even have a word for that.
Good post.

I'm seeing a lot of 20/20 hindsight in this thread. People act as though Dawkins was a disaster in the victories this season. The guy ran roughshod over NAU & UTEP. And it's not as though Arizona has a stable of incredible receivers getting open to throw to. That alone can make it harder to discern which QB is better. Dawkins also had a ton more game experience than Tate. So if the competition in camp between the two was tight, it's easy to see why RR went with the experienced Dawkins over Tate.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by scumdevils86 »

UTEP is literally the worst team in FBS. So try again. I practically could have scored against them and I'm a 6'2" 230lb out of shape 31 year old.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by zonagrad »

scumdevils86 wrote:UTEP is literally the worst team in FBS. So try again. I practically could have scored against them and I'm a 6'2" 230lb out of shape 31 year old.
And so would Tate. What's your point? Dawkins clearly had a ton more game experience than Tate, who by all accounts was pretty raw as a freshman. I'm not on the Dawkins' bandwagon. But what would be the motive for RR playing Dawkins over Tate other than he thought Dawkins was more experienced and less likely to commit turnovers? It's easy to say after the fact that Tate should've been starting. And maybe he was slightly better than Dawkins in camp. Hell, Jeff Tedford started Reggie Robertson over Aaron Rogers for a few games at Cal.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by Puerco »

scumdevils86 wrote:UTEP is literally the worst team in FBS. So try again. I practically could have scored against them and I'm a 6'2" 230lb out of shape 31 year old.
I guarantee you were not shouting, 'Bench Dawkins!' after UTEP.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by chiefzona »

Puerco wrote:
scumdevils86 wrote:UTEP is literally the worst team in FBS. So try again. I practically could have scored against them and I'm a 6'2" 230lb out of shape 31 year old.
I guarantee you were not shouting, 'Bench Dawkins!' after UTEP.

Trent Bourguet who is a junior QB at Marana could've played against UTEP and done well.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by Sid »

chiefzona wrote:
Puerco wrote:
scumdevils86 wrote:UTEP is literally the worst team in FBS. So try again. I practically could have scored against them and I'm a 6'2" 230lb out of shape 31 year old.
I guarantee you were not shouting, 'Bench Dawkins!' after UTEP.

Trent Bourguet who is a junior QB at Marana could've played against UTEP and done well.
On the bright side, if things go as planned Chief can look forward to holding up a "Fire Rich Rod" sign at the coliseum during ESPN Game Day.

Great therapy for Chief!
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Re: Fire RR

Post by wyo-cat »

Chef might get on TV with that.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by Sid »

wyo-cat wrote:Chef might get on TV with that.
:lol:
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Re: Fire RR

Post by Longhorned »

It's not a question of whether RR is to blame for overlooking Tate. It's about how much credit he gets for this team turning around a season that, prior to the rise of Tate, was looking like a protraction of the ongoing trending in the wrong direction.

Like some here have said, RR isn't getting fired regardless. But he'd better build upon this current upswing with improved recruiting and finally doing something about defense. Or else:

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Re: Fire RR

Post by Spaceman Spiff »

zonagrad wrote:
scumdevils86 wrote:UTEP is literally the worst team in FBS. So try again. I practically could have scored against them and I'm a 6'2" 230lb out of shape 31 year old.
And so would Tate. What's your point? Dawkins clearly had a ton more game experience than Tate, who by all accounts was pretty raw as a freshman. I'm not on the Dawkins' bandwagon. But what would be the motive for RR playing Dawkins over Tate other than he thought Dawkins was more experienced and less likely to commit turnovers? It's easy to say after the fact that Tate should've been starting. And maybe he was slightly better than Dawkins in camp. Hell, Jeff Tedford started Reggie Robertson over Aaron Rogers for a few games at Cal.
This. I can't think of games with less diagnostic value in terms of who should start than NAU and UTEP. You don't solve any QB situtation against severely outmatched opponents because everyone looks good.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by PHXCATS »

chiefzona wrote:
Puerco wrote:
scumdevils86 wrote:UTEP is literally the worst team in FBS. So try again. I practically could have scored against them and I'm a 6'2" 230lb out of shape 31 year old.
I guarantee you were not shouting, 'Bench Dawkins!' after UTEP.

Trent Bourguet who is a junior QB at Marana could've played against UTEP and done well.
Some people just cannot give credit where it is due and admit when they are wrong.

Take the L like a man and just stop it.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by scumdevils86 »

Credit to who exactly Machina? you? you deserve dick all.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by PHXCATS »

Dawkins, Tate, Rich Rod, Rod Smith, Yates, Offensive Line, the defense.............
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Re: Fire RR

Post by chiefzona »

Sid wrote:
chiefzona wrote:
Puerco wrote:
scumdevils86 wrote:UTEP is literally the worst team in FBS. So try again. I practically could have scored against them and I'm a 6'2" 230lb out of shape 31 year old.
I guarantee you were not shouting, 'Bench Dawkins!' after UTEP.

Trent Bourguet who is a junior QB at Marana could've played against UTEP and done well.
On the bright side, if things go as planned Chief can look forward to holding up a "Fire Rich Rod" sign at the coliseum during ESPN Game Day.

Great therapy for Chief!
What's the plan? I'll hold the Keep Rich Rod Sign. I'm enjoying the mediocrity.
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Re: Fire RR

Post by chiefzona »

wyo-cat wrote:Chef might get on TV with that.


Well, I did make it onto radio. I can be like the Wazzu guy and wave the flag.
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