sorry, not sorry

[97cats]

it has been a whirlwind two years for Sean Miller and the Arizona Basketball Family.

bruises have formed, warts have grown, and deep wounds are unhealed.

some, hell most most Arizona faithful will say the program has been unjustly attacked, and wrongfully accused - singled out in a sea of corruption and cheats.

most Arizona faithful are quick blame a rogue crook of an assistant, who used his power, position, and influence to extort the University and its own student athletes.

most Arizona faithful will say the program is being singled out (unfairly) the finite example of a larger wide spread problem, a national epidemic in a sport thats been dirty for 40 plus years.

most Arizona faithful will point to the other schools and say they are no different - they play the same game, break the same rules... why only us?

but most Arizona faithful dont know, that behind the dirty veil that is college basketball, behind the smoke and mirrors, anyone who is anyone in and around the sport for the last SEVUN years has heard the whispers...

from Andy Enfield to Seth Davis, to Bill Self, to Gary Parrish, to John Beilein, to Myron Metcalf, to Ben Howland, to Dan Wetzel, to Bobby Hurley, to Pat Forde, to Tad Boyle, to Mike Krzyzewski, to Bruce Pascoe, to Larry Krystkowiak, to Jay Bilas, to Kevin O'Neil, to Dana O'Neil, to Steve Alford, to Clark Kellogg, to Johhny Dawkins, to Jon Wilner, to BIlly Donovan, to Bob Ley, to Rick Barnes, to Charles Barkley and on and on and on and on...

Arizona has been the one program who is always labeled (justified or not) as the dirtiest of them all - the one program with no limit. the one program with no shame.

at cocktail parties, fundraisers, alumni events, sporting contests, holiday get togethers...behind the curtain its been there. behind the curtain its been a thorn in a many side.

my first hand conversations with many of the aforementioned above have almost always resulted in some sort of comical banter about NIKE and Arizona paying players - it became so common place that it became an accepted joke, or better yet truth.

nobody could or can cheat the way Arizona can, nobody - thats the ugly perception inside the college basketball circle of trust, inside the veil where information is shared, no punches are held, and no apologies are given.

simple as simple, Sean Miller is the gold standard, impossible to compete against, impossible to beat - Coach Miller and his crew were playing with a different set of rules and resources.

when the chance came to pounce, when there was a chink in the armor, many inside this ugly world took the opportunity, the opportunity they said was long overdue, and attacked, believing what was communicated without proof, without so much as a second source.

its had to be.

this is Arizona under Sean Miller.

this is just the way it is.

it wasnt a circumstance of truth be told, but how much would actually be exposed.

there is an ugly underbelly here, fueled with jealousy and angst.

an underbelly that has been waiting to strike at Arizona, Sean Miller, and its program and finally bring to the forefront what everybody already knew.

the agenda is bigger than ESPN.

the agenda is bigger than !YAHOO.

the agenda is wrought in the "i told you so's" and their longstanding disgust with Arizona Basketball.

the label will never leave, cause the label was always there.

i will never forget speaking to Seth Davis in December 2017 at a holiday party in Manhattan Beach and he said to me, and i paraphrase:

"Jon, ive been telling you for years it cant go on forever. you cant cheat with this veracity at this level forever. i told you it would all come crashing down. i told you it would end ugly"

well, Seth - we will see

sorry not sorry

[Spaceman Spiff]

As always, I respect your posts.

I would say this. I don't think everyone does what we do, but we recruit on a KY, Duke, level. There's a price to pay if you want to be on that level. I don't doubt we do what it takes to get to the top of a dirty game.

I do think it works proportionally. To refer back to what some others have said, for the top recruits, the money is there for anyone. To beat out Kentucky for Aaron Gordon...it wasn't about money.

Putting Bill Self on that list, well, he knows what's up and his text messages say as much. Bill Self can shit on us all he wants, but when Josh Jackson goes to KU as his mom is being paid by two shoe companies plus the KU money men...there aren't angels landing top five classes.

[azcat49]

I am intrigued by your second to last line where Davis says it can’t go on forever and you said, “we will see”. There is something in that sentence I think

[goslingswagg]

As always, I respect your posts.

I would say this. I don't think everyone does what we do, but we recruit on a KY, Duke, level. There's a price to pay if you want to be on that level. I don't doubt we do what it takes to get to the top of a dirty game.

I do think it works proportionally. To refer back to what some others have said, for the top recruits, the money is there for anyone. To beat out Kentucky for Aaron Gordon...it wasn't about money.

Putting Bill Self on that list, well, he knows what's up and his text messages say as much. Bill Self can shit on us all he wants, but when Josh Jackson goes to KU as his mom is being paid by two shoe companies plus the KU money men...there aren't angels landing top five classes.

I get that we've been as dirty as anyone...what I don't understand is why Nike would give us preferential treatment versus any other of their flagship basketball programs. Why would we get this perception, when I'm sure Nike would be just as willing to pay for a kid to come to AZ as they would be to pay for a kid to go to UK or Duke or Oregon or anyone else.

What I believe, as Choo has mentioned, is that if you can become the #1 school for a recruit under your apparel provider, then it is up to the apparel companies to battle for ponying up the cash against the top Adidas and Under Armour competitors. That's how I've always understood it. I highly doubt that there's some preferential treatment we're getting by Nike over any other Nike program, I think it really is Sean Miller that is a great recruiter combined with Nike having the biggest coffers of any of the apparel companies that leads to us recruiting well year-over-year in this Miller era.

I would love to be corrected if I'm wrong here, but that is my understanding, and therefore, I think the singling out of our program in this mess has been relatively unjust.

[NYCat]

I laughed at Ole Miss & UNC football when they got caught, we're probably going to have the same legacy. Couldn't even win anything of note.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I laughed at Ole Miss & UNC football when they got caught, we're probably going to have the same legacy. Couldn't even win anything of note.

For UNC football, don't you mean *caught?

[CatFanOneMil]

Ya know...my second daughter went through high school with a reputation as a real badass, "Don't mess with her she'll cut you" people avoided her and she got in trouble with the principal on a regular basis just fro intimidating people...but she never ever even got into one fight...

I'm calling bullshit here...I am sure there are SOME people who have talked about all the dirty ways Miller cheats...but NO ONE IS THAT GOOD AT CHEATING...

No one.

There have been enough disgruntled players to leave the program that could have easily exposed Millers corruption...hell if its a rampant as you are suggesting there's plenty of players who were part of it that would have let it slip in a conversation in an interview somewhere...

But you know what we have here?

Rumors.

Thats all.

Just he said he heard someone say that someone else knew that someone said something somewhere sometime that Miller cheats.

Give me some goddam proof.

Enough with the innuendo and rumors.

This is just your version of a Mark Schlabach article, unless you have some first hand knowledge (which would make you an accomplice if you kept it to yourself) this is just a reputation of jealous people making claims.

I do not think for one minute Miller was able to hide from someone like Lorenzo Romar who worked WITH Miller for a year and saw how things actually worked and maintained some vast cheating enterprise, HELL MILLER WOULD NEVER HA+VE HIRED ROMAR IF THIS STUFF WAS TRUE, and if you think Romar is dirty you're on crack.

[catgrad97]

I don't know how the talking heads can process the incredibly heinous flouting of the rules UNC basketball has gotten away with in just the past decade and still insist, "Arizona cheats worse."

No matter what the truth about Duke or the SEC schools is, to perceive that Tar Heel hoops is somehow less dirty and not in its own class of rules as a program is a deliberately, willfully blind perception of the public program that is college basketball's K-2 of corruption.

The violations that Roy Williams has managed to avoid punishment for are on a scale so gargantuan relative to the sport, it can only be analogous to a lousy businessman. One so poor that he has not paid taxes for years only because he has lost so much money, he literally could never possibly afford to do so.

For the public faces of the sport to all so casually agree that Arizona basketball is somehow still worse is, there is no other comparison, a failure of logic only comparable to Trumpism. Sean Miller has become the "But Hillary/Obama" response in every single discussion--supported by the same amount of evidence.

Sorry...not sorry.

[NYCat]

I'll just leave these here..

Because some of you are slow or daft

every top 50 program for the last 25 years has paid for the vast majority of their top players.

the top, top programs pay for a much higher percentage due to the fact that they get a higher percentage of top players -- its been a know practice and somewhat accepted for as long as i can remember, and yes, Arizona is right there with the best of them.

the programs with the pedigree, resources, and willingness to "do what it takes" have had the clear advantage in landing the top stars.

where this falls on Adidas is that they have long been cornered with direct benefits to the teams they sponsor, whereas other programs like Arizona have had a deft process and tight secrecy.

Book exposed Arizona thru a channel it has never used, Adidas, for his own personal greed and gain -- not to mention 5k...and therein lies where all Arizona fans should be infuriated, fucking Book Richardson did this for 5k, 5 fucking k, and did so by going outside of the model that was so effective and un-penetrable up to this point.

so, its not about if the teams cheat, its how they cheat, and Arizona did it as good or better than anyone.

and one last thing, how do you guys think i know all the inside information i know? is it because you think i talk to Sean Miller everyday? or that Greg Byrne and Jim Livengood used to call me and tell me that Stanley Johnson was going to commit, or Aaron Gordon was coming to Arizona or that Chase Budinger was going to stay for his Jr year or that Sean Miller met with our main booster in Santa Fe or that John Calipari convinced Miller to come to AZ?

no, its because the web of involvement of people not directly affiliated with the program are intertwined in the mix, they are the ones who pull the strings and cover the man holes, and its like that at every school that handles their business effectively at this level.

its the darkest kept secret of of a 1000 or so people around the country at various universities who are not employees or staff members who are vital to the culture of college basketball today, and that culture is a culture of greed and billions and billions of dollars on the line.... from CBS and FOX to ESPN and Adidas and NIKE and Under Armor and Foot Locker and McDonalds and on and on and on.....

97, can you elaborate a bit on the well oiled machine?
Not looking for names, just some idea of what miller does better than the others

the game inside big-time recruiting at the top 30(ish) NCAA Basketball programs is simple, the top players get compensated (some more than others) and this has been standard practice for three decades, maybe more depending who you ask and when you ask them.

most of the difference comes with the individuals and the capacity of those individuals who are in charge to make a special impact -- charisma, staying power, success, trust, experience, etc.

when paired with HUGE resources the tandem creates a powerful platform - Kansas, Mich St, Syracuse, Duke, Kentucky, Louisville, UCLA, Arizona, North Carolina, Florida, Villanova, Indiana, UCONN, Ohio State, Texas are all playing with a stacked deck. they have the infrastructure and leadership to be the top landing spots for the majority of the top players.

then schools that participate but at the next tier down, having support and solid foundations, but one step below in the resources or 'Blue Blood' cache: Wichita State, Maryland, Washington, Florida State, USC, Georgetown, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Alabama, Miami, NC Sate, Utah, Gonzaga, Purdue, Butler, Minnesota, Texas A&M, Auburn, etc.

I'm for sure missing relevant programs, but this top 30(ish) or so all participates, just on different levels.

where Sean Miller and Arizona were able to separate at times and compete with the top tier and WIN was from the support of the program.

Arizona is attractive to coach for a number of reasons, resources are a bug part of that. Olson built the program on it and everyone out WEST was terrified of Arizona for two decades. Calipari was attracted to its potential and Sean Miller and Co took it to a whole new level.

the Andy Enfield's of the world in college bball know when Bill Self, Tom Izzo, Roy Williams or John Calipari really engages that his chances of success with that said recruit diminish considerably - Sean Miller was able to penetrate that veil and have success and the Arizona brand was/is the real reason why.

[prh]

Ya know...my second daughter went through high school with a reputation as a real badass, "Don't mess with her she'll cut you" people avoided her and she got in trouble with the principal on a regular basis just fro intimidating people...but she never ever even got into one fight...

I'm calling bullshit here...I am sure there are SOME people who have talked about all the dirty ways Miller cheats...but NO ONE IS THAT GOOD AT CHEATING...

No one.

There have been enough disgruntled players to leave the program that could have easily exposed Millers corruption...hell if its a rampant as you are suggesting there's plenty of players who were part of it that would have let it slip in a conversation in an interview somewhere...

But you know what we have here?

Rumors.

Thats all.

Just he said he heard someone say that someone else knew that someone said something somewhere sometime that Miller cheats.

Give me some goddam proof.

Enough with the innuendo and rumors.

This is just your version of a Mark Schlabach article, unless you have some first hand knowledge (which would make you an accomplice if you kept it to yourself) this is just a reputation of jealous people making claims.

I do not think for one minute Miller was able to hide from someone like Lorenzo Romar who worked WITH Miller for a year and saw how things actually worked and maintained some vast cheating enterprise, HELL MILLER WOULD NEVER HA+VE HIRED ROMAR IF THIS STUFF WAS TRUE, and if you think Romar is dirty you're on crack.

97 has more knowledge and understanding of the inner workings of college basketball than the rest of us combined. He's been quieter the last couple years, but his record here, TOS, and elsewhere has been very long and dead on.

[97cats]

I'll just leave these here..

Because some of you are slow or daft

holy shit

[Newportcat]

Ya know...my second daughter went through high school with a reputation as a real badass, "Don't mess with her she'll cut you" people avoided her and she got in trouble with the principal on a regular basis just fro intimidating people...but she never ever even got into one fight...

I'm calling bullshit here...I am sure there are SOME people who have talked about all the dirty ways Miller cheats...but NO ONE IS THAT GOOD AT CHEATING...

No one.

There have been enough disgruntled players to leave the program that could have easily exposed Millers corruption...hell if its a rampant as you are suggesting there's plenty of players who were part of it that would have let it slip in a conversation in an interview somewhere...

But you know what we have here?

Rumors.

Thats all.

Just he said he heard someone say that someone else knew that someone said something somewhere sometime that Miller cheats.

Give me some goddam proof.

Enough with the innuendo and rumors.

This is just your version of a Mark Schlabach article, unless you have some first hand knowledge (which would make you an accomplice if you kept it to yourself) this is just a reputation of jealous people making claims.

I do not think for one minute Miller was able to hide from someone like Lorenzo Romar who worked WITH Miller for a year and saw how things actually worked and maintained some vast cheating enterprise, HELL MILLER WOULD NEVER HA+VE HIRED ROMAR IF THIS STUFF WAS TRUE, and if you think Romar is dirty you're on crack.

97 spreading rumors hahaha good one

97 is the Oracle and he speaks regularly to God himself

When he says something he speaks the truth. Period, end of story

[KillerKlown]

Interesting. Good read.

[zonagrad]

I don't know how Arizona can be considered the elite of the elite amongst cheaters when I see Kentucky & Duke consistently pulling the elite of the elite recruits.

Almost every year it's the same. Arizona has a good recruiting class -- gets some early commits. But when the hay is finally in the barn, Duke and/or Kentucky always had the best of the best. The Zions. The Jamari Parkers. The Anthony Davis. Josh Jackson.

So, while I don't doubt Arizona swims with sharks. I do doubt that Arizona was any worse that other blue bloods.

[97cats]

every top tier program cheats, i 100% agree - That’s not the issue as I see it.

the way AZ did it ticked people off - when Book got collared, the gloves came off.

plain and simple

[catgrad97]

every top tier program cheats, i 100% agree - That’s not the issue as I see it.

the way AZ did it ticked people off - when Book got collared, the gloves came off.

plain and simple

So these people didn't really care there was cheating in college basketball. They just didn't like the way Arizona cheated.

[CatFanOneMil]

And yet somehow with a Federal Wiretap, the FBI being able to confiscate any and all records they want, Sean Miller and the UofA and NO BOOSTERS have been charged or even mentioned as suspects really...

If you think for one second that the FBI did not try to get a big fish on their fishing expedition you have no idea how law enforcement works...

So far no coaches anywhere have been caught and we know for a fact that the FBI has subpoenaed both Adidas and Nike records and here we are with no charges being brought to anyone of rank...

I appreciate a good conspiracy theory...I really do, hell for a while 15 years ago I thought John Titor was real...but eventually evidence comes round that no...it was all just some guys blowing smoke because they either wanted a good laugh or had convinced themselves...

I hate to bang on this drum again but so far no one has provided an ounce of actual evidence...its just a theory of a huge cover-up.

People who will steal and cheat will also lie and brag at some point some guy will provide actual proof...no one gets away forever, not a huge conspiracy like this anyway.

[97cats]

i don’t need a federal wiretap to know Kentucky pays its players

anyway, that’s not the point of this thread

[Harvey Specter]

There has been enough stoke that anyone who does not believe there is a very realistic possibility of fire is playing opossum. That said, a few things do not add up.

1. President Robbins and Heeke are complete morons (and remarkably inept at self-preservation, which is a hallmark characteristic of most who elevate themselves to such lofty levels as theirs) if they have stood by Miller throughout this ordeal without ironclad evidence of his innocence.
2. It is honestly comical to think that Nike would place all its might behind Arizona (for too many obvious reasons to mention), or that we have an affluent & rabid enough alumni donor base to flex more ‘market muscle’ than a host of other high profile programs.
3. I have read the Andy Enfoeld reference before, and it makes me laugh more now even than it did previously. With HIS record, at HIS school (and their exceptional program history/ fan support for BB), look at HIS Recent recruiting successes. Far more befuddling than any that Miller has pulled. Otay.

I guess Jay Bilas was late to the party, as I know that he has changed his tune in the last 15 months... but Captain Pious himself was adamant in his righteous indignation in defense of Sean Miller.

Apparently he just wasn’t being invited to the right cocktail parties. Curious, given his prominence in the college hoops scene and SoCal roots, but I guess sometimes the cool kids are very selective when accepting new members into the club,

“No, it is not. I know Sean Miller to be a man of great honesty and integrity. I don’t believe for a second he knew of any improper behavior. Jay Bilas (@JayBilas)”

[CatFanOneMil]

There has been enough stoke that anyone who does not believe there is a very realistic possibility of fire is playing opossum. That said, a few things do not add up.

1. President Robbins and Heeke are complete morons (and remarkably inept at self-preservation, which is a hallmark characteristic of most who elevate themselves to such lofty levels as theirs) if they have stood by Miller throughout this ordeal without ironclad evidence of his innocence.
2. It is honestly comical to think that Nike would place all its might behind Arizona (for too many obvious reasons to mention), or that we have an affluent & rabid enough alumni donor base to flex more ‘market muscle’ than a host of other high profile programs.
3. I have read the Andy Enfoeld reference before, and it makes me laugh more now even than it did previously. With HIS record, at HIS school (and their exceptional program history/ fan support for BB), look at HIS Recent recruiting successes. Far more befuddling than any that Miller has pulled. Otay.

I guess Jay Bilas was late to the party, as I know that he has changed his tune in the last 15 months... but Captain Pious himself was adamant in his righteous indignation in defense of Sean Miller.

Apparently he just wasn’t being invited to the right cocktail parties. Curious, given his prominence in the college hoops scene and SoCal roots, but I guess sometimes the cool kids are very selective when accepting new members into the club,

“No, it is not. I know Sean Miller to be a man of great honesty and integrity. I don’t believe for a second he knew of any improper behavior. Jay Bilas (@JayBilas)”

To many broken links to make the conspiracy stick...

I think if there is ANY money it might be flowing from boosters to family members, or perhaps some shoe rep to provide a discounted housing/or employment opportunity while the kid is in school...I seriously doubt that Alonzo Triers single mom income was enough to get her air fare to every away game she went to along with time off/motel/per diem...but that is not the same as "paying a guy to come play at Az"...as far as I can tell it is not against any NCAA rules for some booster to pay her some stipend that avails her the privilege of seeing her son play on the road...I have no problem with that one way or another...

But the idea that every coach of every major program has some super secret society that pays recruits has about as much traction as the aliens in area 51.

[ChooChooCat]

every top tier program cheats, i 100% agree - That’s not the issue as I see it.

the way AZ did it ticked people off - when Book got collared, the gloves came off.

plain and simple

I think there was also a bit of "you shouldn't be here" type of jealousy going on as well. Then again that's what Sean Miller brought.

[jajoyce]

Have AZ “resources” stopped/slowed down or in proper terms run dry due to the last 18 months? What about other schools? Or is everyone just way more cautious?

[Chicat]

every top tier program cheats, i 100% agree - That’s not the issue as I see it.

the way AZ did it ticked people off - when Book got collared, the gloves came off.

plain and simple

I think there was also a bit of "you shouldn't be here" type of jealousy going on as well. Then again that's what Sean Miller brought.

The silence from Sean’s coaching colleagues has been deafening.

[ChooChooCat]

every top tier program cheats, i 100% agree - That’s not the issue as I see it.

the way AZ did it ticked people off - when Book got collared, the gloves came off.

plain and simple

I think there was also a bit of "you shouldn't be here" type of jealousy going on as well. Then again that's what Sean Miller brought.

The silence from Sean’s coaching colleagues has been deafening.

Except for Tad Boyle of course, but he's a wrinkled penis and nobody cares what he thinks.

[NYCat]

nouveau riche

[Spaceman Spiff]

every top tier program cheats, i 100% agree - That’s not the issue as I see it.

the way AZ did it ticked people off - when Book got collared, the gloves came off.

plain and simple

I'm sure the difference in the way we cheat vs other top programs...well, not the ideal time to discuss publicly, but it sure is interesting.

The parallels between Miller and a young Calipari have always struck me. People forget that early in his career, Cal was VERY divisive. John Chaney tried to fight him at a press conference, the NY media threw a party for his firing, the NCAA sanctions at UMass happened. Cal's been at it for over 20 years, is at a blue blood and part of the establishment now.

Before the FBI, we were scared Miller would jump to UNC. I wonder if that move wouldn't have been when Miller made the Cal jump from overaggressive kid to made man.

[97cats]

I think there was also a bit of "you shouldn't be here" type of jealousy going on as well. Then again that's what Sean Miller brought.

interesting perspective, thank you

The silence from Sean’s coaching colleagues has been deafening.

Pasternack was behind so much of the inner workings at Arizona in those middle years - 'Crazy" Joe they called him, the man was relentless.

[CatFanOneMil]

every top tier program cheats, i 100% agree - That’s not the issue as I see it.

the way AZ did it ticked people off - when Book got collared, the gloves came off.

plain and simple

I think there was also a bit of "you shouldn't be here" type of jealousy going on as well. Then again that's what Sean Miller brought.

The silence from Sean’s coaching colleagues has been deafening.

Deafening in a sound proof room perhaps. WHEN has ANY coaching peer group ever defended another coach?

I can recall when Larry Krystkowiak came out and said "we don't convict people without evidence, I think we need to see the evidence first" and this is from the guy who in 2015 said there was a lot of cheating going on in college hoops...he has been very vocal about the "underground" element, but he has also never thrown Miller under the bus and in the one locker room conversation said we need evidence...

I don't see any coaches going to bat for other coaches...not really...and yes Miller has a dirty dog reputation in the recruiting world, there's probably not a coach in the Pac that he has not recruited AGAINST on the road...and as a general rule beat.

But none of us are in the recruiting game...not one of us has ever sat in a session where Miller is spinning his sales pitch for recruits...

Everyone of the recruits we've had in the last few years has pointed out the fact that UofA has the best fan base and attendance numbers in the entire west coast...MIller did not built that LUTE BUILT THAT...

So a huge part of Millers weapon for recruiting is the fact that the only game in town is UofA basketball and there will never be a game at home where there are not 14,000 fans watching you play versus 3000 at Colorado or maybe 5000 at Utah, or maybe 2500 at UCLA...these numbers do not lie...and these young dudes want more than anything to be seen playing...if they are going out West its either UofA Oregon or Gonzaga...

You don't have to cheat to sell that...its a fact.

College hoops coaches don't defend each other...its not masculine.

[97cats]

I'm sure the difference in the way we cheat vs other top programs...well, not the ideal time to discuss publicly, but it sure is interesting.

more the aggressive nature, brazen

plus Arizona isnt UNC or Kentucky or Duke in terms of cache without it, so they press(ed) the gas a little harder. and, nobody likes getting bitch slapped in Madison Square Garden by a team thats pushing its way into its space.

The parallels between Miller and a young Calipari have always struck me. People forget that early in his career, Cal was VERY divisive. John Chaney tried to fight him at a press conference, the NY media threw a party for his firing, the NCAA sanctions at UMass happened. Cal's been at it for over 20 years, is at a blue blood and part of the establishment now.

not only divisive, but on the edge, always pushing the envelope - Marcus Camby was accused of accepting large sums of cash and UMASS had to vacate its 1996 NCAA Tournament victories and Final Four appearance.

and, to his credit, just like Miller, Calipari has pissed off his fair share of people, coaches, fans, writers especially in his early years.

Before the FBI, we were scared Miller would jump to UNC. I wonder if that move wouldn't have been when Miller made the Cal jump from overaggressive kid to made man.

if he had a Final Four or two i do think things would be different, in either circumstance.

[CalStateTempe]

I'm sure the difference in the way we cheat vs other top programs...well, not the ideal time to discuss publicly, but it sure is interesting.

more the aggressive nature, brazen

plus Arizona isnt UNC or Kentucky or Duke in terms of cache without it, so they press(ed) the gas a little harder. and, nobody likes getting bitch slapped in Madison Square Garden by a team thats pushing its way into its space.

The parallels between Miller and a young Calipari have always struck me. People forget that early in his career, Cal was VERY divisive. John Chaney tried to fight him at a press conference, the NY media threw a party for his firing, the NCAA sanctions at UMass happened. Cal's been at it for over 20 years, is at a blue blood and part of the establishment now.

not only divisive, but on the edge, always pushing the envelope - Marcus Camby was accused of accepting large sums of cash and UMASS had to vacate its 1996 NCAA Tournament victories and Final Four appearance.

and, to his credit, just like Miller, Calipari has pissed off his fair share of people, coaches, fans, writers especially in his early years.

Before the FBI, we were scared Miller would jump to UNC. I wonder if that move wouldn't have been when Miller made the Cal jump from overaggressive kid to made man.

if he had a Final Four or two i do think things would be different, in either circumstance.

I believe that last statement to be entirely true, especially because the tone inside the unc AD at that time when I was boots on the ground was certainly that miller was in the driver seat to succeed Roy, especially if he got the the ff at Arizona .

Which raises the question, is this all a blessing in disguise? A pissed off miller at a program with the machinary largely intact at an institution with a ride of die with its mentality set its coach against blue bloods trying to keep a raising star down?

[Longhorned]

I <3 this thread.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm sure the difference in the way we cheat vs other top programs...well, not the ideal time to discuss publicly, but it sure is interesting.

more the aggressive nature, brazen

plus Arizona isnt UNC or Kentucky or Duke in terms of cache without it, so they press(ed) the gas a little harder. and, nobody likes getting bitch slapped in Madison Square Garden by a team thats pushing its way into its space.

The parallels between Miller and a young Calipari have always struck me. People forget that early in his career, Cal was VERY divisive. John Chaney tried to fight him at a press conference, the NY media threw a party for his firing, the NCAA sanctions at UMass happened. Cal's been at it for over 20 years, is at a blue blood and part of the establishment now.

not only divisive, but on the edge, always pushing the envelope - Marcus Camby was accused of accepting large sums of cash and UMASS had to vacate its 1996 NCAA Tournament victories and Final Four appearance.

and, to his credit, just like Miller, Calipari has pissed off his fair share of people, coaches, fans, writers especially in his early years.

Before the FBI, we were scared Miller would jump to UNC. I wonder if that move wouldn't have been when Miller made the Cal jump from overaggressive kid to made man.

if he had a Final Four or two i do think things would be different, in either circumstance.

Yeah, that's sort of what I surmised from the outside. Young, aggressive coaches tend to make establishment enemies pretty fast.

We started recruiting guys that were above the level Arizona or Miller had previously touched. We've had McDonalds guys, but the multiple guys in each class and monsters like Gordon, Ayton, etc. was a new thing.

And I don't feel bad for that. I have no doubt that we're in the same stuff as other big time programs. Miller's biggest "flaw" was not accepting his place and striving to make us one of the big guns. I like that.

It helps that I don't care about paying players or think that's somehow bad. I want to see Miller survive long enough that he gets Calipari cache and people accept our place.

[Beachcat97]

This thread has me more pumped than ever for next season.

BTFD!

[Longhorned]

The whole idea that the university administration isn't aware of all this is buffoonery. As if administrators are waiting to find out whether coaches are cheating, and then they're shocked and fire the coach for not measuring up to the high standards and educational mission as the rest of campus. I used to be one of the buffoons who believed that.

It's such a myth that this cheating is somehow apart from, and antithetical to, what universities do on the academic side. In reality, the colleges that comprise a campus are all cheating at each other's expense, even tearing one another apart. Some units just cheat better than others. It's part of the game, and it's encouraged by the university. The university even models the framework for it.

[Spaceman Spiff]

The whole idea that the university administration isn't aware of all this is buffoonery. As if administrators are waiting to find out whether coaches are cheating, and then they're shocked and fire the coach for not measuring up to the high standards and educational mission as the rest of campus. I used to be one of the buffoons who believed that.

It's such a myth that this cheating is somehow apart from, and antithetical to, what universities do on the academic side. In reality, the colleges that comprise a campus are all cheating at each other's expense, even tearing one another apart. Some units just cheat better than others. It's part of the game, and it's encouraged by the university. The university even models the framework for it.

Say a student is exceptionally talented in cancer research. Arizona wants to lavish extra benefits on that kid so we can say one of the leading cancer researchers in the world went to UA.

No one bats an eye at that. Change cancer research to basketball, and everyone has a conniption. It's part of the hypocrisy of all of this.

[Alieberman]

This thread has me more pumped than ever for next season.

BTFD!

Does it really?

This thread just makes me realize that the joy is gone, we are seeing the other side of the curtain and the suspension of disbelief is now completely gone forever.

We are on borrowed time.

[CatFanOneMil]

All I have to say is IF Miller is as big a cheat as is implied AND if he has survived the FBI, Pac 12 and independent investigation from UofA outside counsel, then my gut feeling is he will beat the hell out of anything the NCAA tries to throw at him because he is a fucking witch.

I still believe the majority of the sport is pretty clean, hell Larry Krystkowiak has vocally said that there is cheating and he walks away from any questionable recruits AND THEN there are claims Kuzma was paid while playing for him, then either we believe that its possible for players to be paid by shoe companys/boosters/and or lied about being paid and coaches to be unaware, or there is a vast underground secret society worthy of a Dan Brown conspiracy novel dating back to the Masons in Benjamin Franklins days running college basketball...which would be odd considering that the sport wasn't even invented then.

[Longhorned]

This thread has me more pumped than ever for next season.

BTFD!

Does it really?

This thread just makes me realize that the joy is gone, we are seeing the other side of the curtain and the suspension of disbelief is now completely gone forever.

We are on borrowed time.

Very true. It's beyond time to change the system. I still can't believe the direction the NCAA went with that Condoleeza Rice team.

[Beachcat97]

This thread has me more pumped than ever for next season.

BTFD!

Does it really?

This thread just makes me realize that the joy is gone, we are seeing the other side of the curtain and the suspension of disbelief is now completely gone forever.

We are on borrowed time.

All a matter of perspective. I've never for a second seen Miller as a bad apple among a bunch of virtuous, ethical coaches and programs. The well is tainted. But Miller/AZ aren't the ones who tainted it.

Does it suck being disillusioned by all that's come to light about college hoops corruption? Yes. Does it change how I feel about AZ hoops and Miller? Nope.

That "joy" you're referring to will return very quickly once we start winning again. And I don't think we're on borrowed time. This next season will determine whether Miller leaves next year or stays at AZ for a while, and I'm hoping it's the latter.

[NYCat]

Which raises the question, is this all a blessing in disguise? A pissed off miller at a program with the machinary largely intact at an institution with a ride of die with its mentality set its coach against blue bloods trying to keep a raising star down?

Arizona is probably Miller's last big time job, he'll have to settle for Mississippi State, Virginia Tech type jobs at best or a NBA assistant job if Arizona does move on. It will be interesting to see what Miller/Arizona does now that it's a cornered animal and desperate.

We'll either fail in the same way we've failed in the past, stop short of reaching Final Four's, or reach it and Miller gets the 'cache' to get a seat at the big boys table and he'll be 'made'. It will be interesting to see it play out if Miller does survive over the course of the next couple of years.

[CalStateTempe]

The whole idea that the university administration isn't aware of all this is buffoonery. As if administrators are waiting to find out whether coaches are cheating, and then they're shocked and fire the coach for not measuring up to the high standards and educational mission as the rest of campus. I used to be one of the buffoons who believed that.

It's such a myth that this cheating is somehow apart from, and antithetical to, what universities do on the academic side. In reality, the colleges that comprise a campus are all cheating at each other's expense, even tearing one another apart. Some units just cheat better than others. It's part of the game, and it's encouraged by the university. The university even models the framework for it.

Say a student is exceptionally talented in cancer research. Arizona wants to lavish extra benefits on that kid so we can say one of the leading cancer researchers in the world went to UA.

No one bats an eye at that. Change cancer research to basketball, and everyone has a conniption. It's part of the hypocrisy of all of this.

Having started out in my career in immunology research, this is totally true.

Imo the turf wars and siloing and competitiveness in academia among universities is more political and cutthroat than anything I have seen in business, especially cause funding is so limited.

Hats off to the academic hero’s like LH that have weathered the storms and find a way to survive to full professorship.

[97cats]

Does it really?

This thread just makes me realize that the joy is gone, we are seeing the other side of the curtain and the suspension of disbelief is now completely gone forever.

youre a very positive and hopeful man, i respect that, but im pretty sure that disbelief was already somewhat gone for you before this thread - pushed down low, perhaps...but there nonetheless

We are on borrowed time.

the game as we knew it and the way we wanted to know it is gone

[Alieberman]

Does it really?

This thread just makes me realize that the joy is gone, we are seeing the other side of the curtain and the suspension of disbelief is now completely gone forever.

youre a very positive and hopeful man, i respect that, but im pretty sure that disbelief was already somewhat gone for you before this thread - pushed down low, perhaps...but there nonetheless

We are on borrowed time.

the game as we knew it and the way we wanted to know it is gone

I'm not naive. I knew things were not as they seemed. But I was still able to live in denial! I can't anymore.

[Longhorned]

Let the payers pay the players, just like it works in the rest of the university and the rest of the world. Some programs have more boosters with deeper pockets, others fewer and less. Some players are more valuable to shoe companies, others less so.

And as far as universities go, I'm actually talking about something worse than you guys are saying, and something that has to get fixed somehow.

[97cats]

Let the payers pay the players, just like it works in the rest of the university and the rest of the world. Some programs have more boosters with deeper pockets, others fewer and less. Some players are more valuable to shoe companies, others less so.

i dont disagree with this at all

And as far as universities go, I'm actually talking about something worse than you guys are saying, and something that has to get fixed somehow.

i would like to learn more about this in terms of what the fix would do and/or some detail or color.

[Spaceman Spiff]

This thread has me more pumped than ever for next season.

BTFD!

Does it really?

This thread just makes me realize that the joy is gone, we are seeing the other side of the curtain and the suspension of disbelief is now completely gone forever.

We are on borrowed time.

My joy persists. It doesn't change my feelings about college basketball to think players get money. Young men, frequently from disadvantaged backgrounds, getting paid for their exceptional talent? Heavens.

I can take joy when a pro team wins. Sports aren't meant for this larger morality play aspect. They're just fun to root for your guys.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Let the payers pay the players, just like it works in the rest of the university and the rest of the world. Some programs have more boosters with deeper pockets, others fewer and less. Some players are more valuable to shoe companies, others less so.

And as far as universities go, I'm actually talking about something worse than you guys are saying, and something that has to get fixed somehow.

Yes. It would be simple and zero cost to drop the prohibition against athletes profiting off their likeness. The market would settle the remainder.

That would neuter the AAU subculture by removing loads of shady middlemen. 3rd parties could just go directly to players instead of routing it through handlers looking to enrich themselves off the back of the player.

I always knew academics were evil. That explains a lot of the grades I was unhappy with back in the day.

[EVCat]

I don't know how Arizona can be considered the elite of the elite amongst cheaters when I see Kentucky & Duke consistently pulling the elite of the elite recruits.

Kentucky and Duke were the only programs to out-recruit Miller, class for class, the last few years.

There was a story written before all of this by a national publication that talked about how there was K and Calipari, then a drop to Miller, and no one really close to usurping Miller.

So that is pretty elite recruiting. If the cheating=recruiting, that is elite. And it is even more elite that we penetrated through the Kansas/UNC/UCLA blue blood barrier. We were a great program once under Lute...4 final fours in 13 years. But that hasn't been since 2001. So, for us to get to a clear #3 perch in talent acquisition requires ELITE recruiting. And perhaps whatever comes with it.

Everyone is doing it. We were just, from what I am reading, doing it better, more efficiently, and with not a bit of humility. Which pissed the power brokers off. Lute took good classes that he could have for 4 years and made them great. Player development isn't going to get the same traction in the 1 or 2 and done world. So, yeah...Lute won. And that program had "help". But he also, for a long time, did it with top 20 - 30 classes that became great players. That program was long gone when Miller got here. And we went to an Elite Eight in year 2.

That was some badass recruiting. If recruiting = cheating, then we do both elite. I am sure it is not a 1:1 ratio, as a kid with his hands out has the hands out for other schools as well. You have to beat them out...there is still recruiting that makes that piece > cheating. But they go hand in hand in elite basketball, it appears.

We just did it really well. Way above expectation for the position of our program. That ruffled feathers. And we smirked when we did it...we shoved it in rivals faces, from what I have understood. We didn't make friends.

[Merkin]

Let the payers pay the players

Seriously, such an easy solution, with no cost to the university. The vast majority of Div I programs lose money on athletics, so if an Ayton wants to go to GCU, he still gets paid and this balances out the playing field just a bit, although not a lot since the elites will still be the elites and get national exposure.

[Beachcat97]

I can take joy when a pro team wins. Sports aren't meant for this larger morality play aspect. They're just fun to root for your guys.

This is close to where I'm at.

I have no illusions (not anymore, at least) about college sports being a business first, everything else second. So while it's dismaying to learn the full picture of Book's shadiness, and realize there's just no way this all went on unbeknownst to Miller, it doesn't change how excited I feel to watch Nico and company win games this winter.

Do you think Duke fans are now less enthusiastic about their team, given what's come to light about Bagley and Zion? Fuck no. Do you think UNC fans give a shit that Roy covered his eyes when academic fraud was keeping his players eligible? Of course not.

The culture of big time college sports is one where competition is always entangled with warring interests: a disingenuous regard for NCAA rules and an aggressive pursuit of championships and glory. Coaches like Miller have to give service to the former while chasing the latter. He didn't create this culture. He's just fully assimilated to it and understands how to navigate it.

When November arrives, I wonder how many here will remain disheartened and put off, and how many will let those feelings go and get right back to rooting for this team and this coach.