Bear Down Wildcats

Looks like just Lauri declaring... at least right now

It really doesn't matter what we prefer.

Sure, we would all love to keep players 4 years with the occasional Junior leaving because they were all world.

But this is their lives, not ours. And $4MM a year guaranteed at the top of the lottery is real money. Real money that can be gone like Ray Smith with the snap of a leg or the shredding of a knee. They have to do what they are legally allowed to do. And under the current CBA, this is it.

It doesn't really matter what we like. We can't expect players to leave life changing money on the table for our amusement.

And it is easy to keep the curtain pulled. You really have to seek recruiting information. 95% of fans have no idea that Bowen is waiting for Trier, or that he has a nickname or that he went to Indiana to play at a high level school. I do...because I pulled back the curtain.

Only Lauri? Idk why Kobi and others possibly declaring later has any effect

gumby wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Longhorned wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Longhorned wrote:Ignorant and whiny comment:

I don't like this new, NBA-centric world where recruits wait to see who declares before committing to program. Go to the best program, compete and learn, earn your way forward, and love the process and where you are.

Is it even new? I remember being a kid in the 1980's and 90's. I wanted to be like Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan, not the best player at my local university.

I really don't think it's new that young players grow up dreaming of the NBA instead of being system contributors in college. The fact that players make college choices to facilitate that dream, well, a lot of kids pick college on the strength of a program that facilitates their desired career. Does anyone rip a non-athlete who wants to be a journalist for trying to push his way into a school with a highly regarded Journalism degree program?

That part isn't new. But how players used to realize their NBA dreams was by competing against upperclassmen to help them learn the system and develop and eventually earn their way into significant floor minutes. Leaving early for the NBA usually meant leaving after your junior year, like Michael Jordan did. I'm just whining, but I can see how former Arizona players from an earlier era with successful NBA careers sincerely miss their college years.

Yeah, but the NBA system used to be flawed in drafting with the assumption that college production would automatically translate into NBA success. The NBA has moved towards the projection of future development, and guys like Kobi, who have great athleticism and skill and lack maturity in their game, benefit.

The incentive to stay just isn't there, but it isn't a college issue. It's the NBA caring less about it.

All it really does is shed light on what has always been going on. Players in the past didn't necessarily care more about staying in school, they had to in order for the NBA to draft them. The modern world only pulls the curtain back on it.

But which do you prefer? i liked the curtain not being pulled.

It's probably my background, but I like to be straightforward about it.

I've posted it before, but I played D1 ball with players who left early and were drafted. Some players care about school. Some don't, except to the extent it makes them eligible. All of them want to go to the NBA and would bounce instantly to be a top pick.

I get why a fan would want it to be different, but I totally get it from the player's perspective. They want to achieve their dreams. There's nothing that will change that.

I would hope Trier has some level of respect for the situation we are in with regards to his timing. In today's world, with his exposure as a player here, I don't really think the combine does much. The NBA knows where they would take him. Get the info, leave or stay, but don't leave the program in a position where Bowen may get itchy or squeezed by his other schools and leave

Straightforward would be dropping any academic requirements. Pull the whole damn curtain back. But we call them student athletes and pretend.

EVCat wrote:It really doesn't matter what we prefer.

Sure, we would all love to keep players 4 years with the occasional Junior leaving because they were all world.

But this is their lives, not ours. And $4MM a year guaranteed at the top of the lottery is real money. Real money that can be gone like Ray Smith with the snap of a leg or the shredding of a knee. They have to do what they are legally allowed to do. And under the current CBA, this is it.

It doesn't really matter what we like. We can't expect players to leave life changing money on the table for our amusement.

And it is easy to keep the curtain pulled. You really have to seek recruiting information. 95% of fans have no idea that Bowen is waiting for Trier, or that he has a nickname or that he went to Indiana to play at a high level school. I do...because I pulled back the curtain.

What part of having your pie and eating too do you not want? I definitely want the best for the players. But, my word, I spend way too much time over the years following Arizona basketball, and looking nostalgically at the past, to say what I want doesn't matter.

gumby wrote:Straightforward would be dropping any academic requirements. Pull the whole damn curtain back. But we call them student athletes and pretend.

In the immortal words of Cardale Jones:

"Classes are pointless. We ain't here to play school."

Miller just said every player will be given their day.

Don't read anything into just Lauri here today

EVCat wrote:It really doesn't matter what we prefer.

Sure, we would all love to keep players 4 years with the occasional Junior leaving because they were all world.

But this is their lives, not ours. And $4MM a year guaranteed at the top of the lottery is real money. Real money that can be gone like Ray Smith with the snap of a leg or the shredding of a knee. They have to do what they are legally allowed to do. And under the current CBA, this is it.

It doesn't really matter what we like. We can't expect players to leave life changing money on the table for our amusement.

And it is easy to keep the curtain pulled. You really have to seek recruiting information. 95% of fans have no idea that Bowen is waiting for Trier, or that he has a nickname or that he went to Indiana to play at a high level school. I do...because I pulled back the curtain.

I get this point if you take it all the way. Why does this occur in association with higher education and all the pretense that goes along with that?

"Any more questions for the student athletes?"

Yeah, I have one. Any thought on ever being a sophomore?


The NBA and their dreams would cease to exist?

you can want what you want.

But do you really think it matters? The only way it matters is if you stop watching, and enough follow. But even then, the NBA just looks for an alternate way, an expansion of minor leagues.

You can have a lot invested...I sure do. But I don't think that my desire for the old system matters. Just like I don't think someone in my old division wanting me to stay when I got offered more money and more exposure to move to my new division matters. It's nice they wanted me to stay, but I have a life to live.

Even for one second expecting players to turn down life changing money, especially those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds, to make a bunch of middle aged fans happy, is unreasonable in my view, yeah. So, yes...it really doesn't matter. Under the current rules, it does not matter what you liked most or what I liked most. If we ascend to the head of the NBA or the NBAPA, maybe it will matter. But in our current roles, as fans with no actual tie to the rule making process? Yes, it is 100% accurate to say our desire for it to be like it was in the 1980's or 1990's does not, in fact, matter.

EVCat wrote:you can want what you want.

But do you really think it matters? The only way it matters is if you stop watching, and enough follow. But even then, the NBA just looks for an alternate way, an expansion of minor leagues.

You can have a lot invested...I sure do. But I don't think that my desire for the old system matters. Just like I don't think someone in my old division wanting me to stay when I got offered more money and more exposure to move to my new division matters. It's nice they wanted me to stay, but I have a life to live.

Even for one second expecting players to turn down life changing money, especially those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds, to make a bunch of middle aged fans happy, is unreasonable in my view, yeah. So, yes...it really doesn't matter. Under the current rules, it does not matter what you liked most or what I liked most. If we ascend to the head of the NBA or the NBAPA, maybe it will matter. But in our current roles, as fans with no actual tie to the rule making process? Yes, it is 100% accurate to say our desire for it to be like it was in the 1980's or 1990's does not, in fact, matter.

Please! Make it so! Beats being a bus stop.

gumby wrote:

EVCat wrote:It really doesn't matter what we prefer.

Sure, we would all love to keep players 4 years with the occasional Junior leaving because they were all world.

But this is their lives, not ours. And $4MM a year guaranteed at the top of the lottery is real money. Real money that can be gone like Ray Smith with the snap of a leg or the shredding of a knee. They have to do what they are legally allowed to do. And under the current CBA, this is it.

It doesn't really matter what we like. We can't expect players to leave life changing money on the table for our amusement.

And it is easy to keep the curtain pulled. You really have to seek recruiting information. 95% of fans have no idea that Bowen is waiting for Trier, or that he has a nickname or that he went to Indiana to play at a high level school. I do...because I pulled back the curtain.

I get this point if you take it all the way. Why does this occur in association with higher education and all the pretense that goes along with that?

"Any more questions for the student athletes?"

Yeah, I have one. Any thought on ever being a sophomore?


The NBA and their dreams would cease to exist?

That's a whole different discussion, whether college athletics should be a minor league for the NBA or whether they should pony up and leave our game alone.

But how do you do that? We cannot mandate kids day in school. We cannot mandate they are not allowed to pursue their career in the NBA. Do we put a cap on recruiting, saying NCAA programs are not allowed to recruit kids in the top 100? Or do we do away with basketball altogether?

I don't think anyone with even a slight interest in the academic process feels comfortable about the current marriage of NCAA basketball to the NBA. We know we are being used. We know we are using these kids. But, short of eliminating the sport or artificially capping the level of player we recruit, what can we do? That is really up to the NBA and what they do. We can't tell kids "nope...you cannot leave school for $16MM guaranteed. Get back to the stipend line."

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

gumby wrote:Straightforward would be dropping any academic requirements. Pull the whole damn curtain back. But we call them student athletes and pretend.

In the immortal words of Cardale Jones:

"Classes are pointless. We ain't here to play school."

Yep.

EVCat wrote:

gumby wrote:

EVCat wrote:It really doesn't matter what we prefer.

Sure, we would all love to keep players 4 years with the occasional Junior leaving because they were all world.

But this is their lives, not ours. And $4MM a year guaranteed at the top of the lottery is real money. Real money that can be gone like Ray Smith with the snap of a leg or the shredding of a knee. They have to do what they are legally allowed to do. And under the current CBA, this is it.

It doesn't really matter what we like. We can't expect players to leave life changing money on the table for our amusement.

And it is easy to keep the curtain pulled. You really have to seek recruiting information. 95% of fans have no idea that Bowen is waiting for Trier, or that he has a nickname or that he went to Indiana to play at a high level school. I do...because I pulled back the curtain.

I get this point if you take it all the way. Why does this occur in association with higher education and all the pretense that goes along with that?

"Any more questions for the student athletes?"

Yeah, I have one. Any thought on ever being a sophomore?


The NBA and their dreams would cease to exist?

That's a whole different discussion, whether college athletics should be a minor league for the NBA or whether they should pony up and leave our game alone.

But how do you do that? We cannot mandate kids day in school. We cannot mandate they are not allowed to pursue their career in the NBA. Do we put a cap on recruiting, saying NCAA programs are not allowed to recruit kids in the top 100? Or do we do away with basketball altogether?

I don't think anyone with even a slight interest in the academic process feels comfortable about the current marriage of NCAA basketball to the NBA. We know we are being used. We know we are using these kids. But, short of eliminating the sport or artificially capping the level of player we recruit, what can we do? That is really up to the NBA and what they do. We can't tell kids "nope...you cannot leave school for $16MM guaranteed. Get back to the stipend line."

Answer is to not roll over and accept it. Push for the baseball rule.

http://www.alligator.org/sports/columns ... 002e0.html" target="_blank

Nothing happens if you think nothing can happen. Have to fight and apply pressure,

Is Kobi going to get his own press conference, can't imagine how awkward that will be. "Yes I learned a lot having my minutes cut late in the season"

that's nice.

But it has been clear the NCAA wants the NBA to go to at least 2 and done. We have "pushed" for it. Ultimately, it is up to the NBA.

Just like it was up to MLB. The three year deal is really in their best interest. They get their prospects and allow college programs to possibly sharpen their borderline prospects before their minor league career. It works for the MLB...that's why it exists.

It is up to the NBA and the NBAPA to negotiate that...and the NBAPA has been resistant. Is it enough for the NBA to risk a strike or lockout over?

I wish basketball was just like the MLB rule. Go out of HS if you want but if you go to college you stay at least three years.

PHXCATS wrote:I wish basketball was just like the MLB rule. Go out of HS if you want but if you go to college you stay at least three years.

This would be perfect. The baseball law does have a bit of an out for older seniors...it is 3 years or 21 years old. Ben Diggins used that as an out a few years back, leaving after his sophomore year because he was already 21. But, yes...this would be the best rule to have.

Problem is, we have to convince the NBAPA that it is in their best interest. I think it is...it certainly extends careers for those who are already in the league...if they think selfishly, the start of the rule would then slow the flow of talent for a couple of years. But their concern is it limits career earnings by 2 or 3 years for the best players, and that it is a bullshit market restrictor. They have been pretty clear they won't play ball (pun intended) for something like that. The NBA commissioner has said he would like to pursue a 2 year rule...I think that is the best we can hope for with the NBAPA position

EVCat wrote:

gumby wrote:

EVCat wrote:It really doesn't matter what we prefer.

Sure, we would all love to keep players 4 years with the occasional Junior leaving because they were all world.

But this is their lives, not ours. And $4MM a year guaranteed at the top of the lottery is real money. Real money that can be gone like Ray Smith with the snap of a leg or the shredding of a knee. They have to do what they are legally allowed to do. And under the current CBA, this is it.

It doesn't really matter what we like. We can't expect players to leave life changing money on the table for our amusement.

And it is easy to keep the curtain pulled. You really have to seek recruiting information. 95% of fans have no idea that Bowen is waiting for Trier, or that he has a nickname or that he went to Indiana to play at a high level school. I do...because I pulled back the curtain.

I get this point if you take it all the way. Why does this occur in association with higher education and all the pretense that goes along with that?

"Any more questions for the student athletes?"

Yeah, I have one. Any thought on ever being a sophomore?


The NBA and their dreams would cease to exist?

That's a whole different discussion, whether college athletics should be a minor league for the NBA or whether they should pony up and leave our game alone.

But how do you do that? We cannot mandate kids day in school. We cannot mandate they are not allowed to pursue their career in the NBA. Do we put a cap on recruiting, saying NCAA programs are not allowed to recruit kids in the top 100? Or do we do away with basketball altogether?

I don't think anyone with even a slight interest in the academic process feels comfortable about the current marriage of NCAA basketball to the NBA. We know we are being used. We know we are using these kids. But, short of eliminating the sport or artificially capping the level of player we recruit, what can we do? That is really up to the NBA and what they do. We can't tell kids "nope...you cannot leave school for $16MM guaranteed. Get back to the stipend line."

Arizona basketball makes 10 million a year. Let's not pretend that players are the only ones using the system for money.

Players want the NBA dream. Schools want the revenue. This isn't about making normal students into players. It's taking kids who want the NBA dream and keeping them eligible so the school can make money and fans can cheer for a top team.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

EVCat wrote:

gumby wrote:

EVCat wrote:It really doesn't matter what we prefer.

Sure, we would all love to keep players 4 years with the occasional Junior leaving because they were all world.

But this is their lives, not ours. And $4MM a year guaranteed at the top of the lottery is real money. Real money that can be gone like Ray Smith with the snap of a leg or the shredding of a knee. They have to do what they are legally allowed to do. And under the current CBA, this is it.

It doesn't really matter what we like. We can't expect players to leave life changing money on the table for our amusement.

And it is easy to keep the curtain pulled. You really have to seek recruiting information. 95% of fans have no idea that Bowen is waiting for Trier, or that he has a nickname or that he went to Indiana to play at a high level school. I do...because I pulled back the curtain.

I get this point if you take it all the way. Why does this occur in association with higher education and all the pretense that goes along with that?

"Any more questions for the student athletes?"

Yeah, I have one. Any thought on ever being a sophomore?


The NBA and their dreams would cease to exist?

That's a whole different discussion, whether college athletics should be a minor league for the NBA or whether they should pony up and leave our game alone.

But how do you do that? We cannot mandate kids day in school. We cannot mandate they are not allowed to pursue their career in the NBA. Do we put a cap on recruiting, saying NCAA programs are not allowed to recruit kids in the top 100? Or do we do away with basketball altogether?

I don't think anyone with even a slight interest in the academic process feels comfortable about the current marriage of NCAA basketball to the NBA. We know we are being used. We know we are using these kids. But, short of eliminating the sport or artificially capping the level of player we recruit, what can we do? That is really up to the NBA and what they do. We can't tell kids "nope...you cannot leave school for $16MM guaranteed. Get back to the stipend line."

Arizona basketball makes 10 million a year. Let's not pretend that players are the only ones using the system for money.

Players want the NBA dream. Schools want the revenue. This isn't about making normal students into players. It's taking kids who want the NBA dream and keeping them eligible so the school can make money and fans can cheer for a top team.

I account for that. My quote is bolded above. "We know we are using these kids."

This is the most mundane discussion ever filled with walls of texts. And it doesn't say anything new that has been said before, countless times.

Congratulate Lauri, wish him luck? Nah, better talk about the Association entry rules

NYCat wrote:This is the most mundane discussion ever filled with walls of texts. And it doesn't say anything new that has been said before.

Which is kind of my point. What we want really doesn't matter. The "dream" is just that unless, magically, the NBAPA suddenly has a change of heart, or the NBA gets some major negotiating power AND wants our dream.

Otherwise, this is just fantasy...watch and enjoy under the current system, or don't and lodge your complaint through not being present.

EVCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

EVCat wrote:

gumby wrote:

EVCat wrote:It really doesn't matter what we prefer.

Sure, we would all love to keep players 4 years with the occasional Junior leaving because they were all world.

But this is their lives, not ours. And $4MM a year guaranteed at the top of the lottery is real money. Real money that can be gone like Ray Smith with the snap of a leg or the shredding of a knee. They have to do what they are legally allowed to do. And under the current CBA, this is it.

It doesn't really matter what we like. We can't expect players to leave life changing money on the table for our amusement.

And it is easy to keep the curtain pulled. You really have to seek recruiting information. 95% of fans have no idea that Bowen is waiting for Trier, or that he has a nickname or that he went to Indiana to play at a high level school. I do...because I pulled back the curtain.

I get this point if you take it all the way. Why does this occur in association with higher education and all the pretense that goes along with that?

"Any more questions for the student athletes?"

Yeah, I have one. Any thought on ever being a sophomore?


The NBA and their dreams would cease to exist?

That's a whole different discussion, whether college athletics should be a minor league for the NBA or whether they should pony up and leave our game alone.

But how do you do that? We cannot mandate kids day in school. We cannot mandate they are not allowed to pursue their career in the NBA. Do we put a cap on recruiting, saying NCAA programs are not allowed to recruit kids in the top 100? Or do we do away with basketball altogether?

I don't think anyone with even a slight interest in the academic process feels comfortable about the current marriage of NCAA basketball to the NBA. We know we are being used. We know we are using these kids. But, short of eliminating the sport or artificially capping the level of player we recruit, what can we do? That is really up to the NBA and what they do. We can't tell kids "nope...you cannot leave school for $16MM guaranteed. Get back to the stipend line."

Arizona basketball makes 10 million a year. Let's not pretend that players are the only ones using the system for money.

Players want the NBA dream. Schools want the revenue. This isn't about making normal students into players. It's taking kids who want the NBA dream and keeping them eligible so the school can make money and fans can cheer for a top team.

I account for that. My quote is bolded above. "We know we are using these kids."

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I didn't mean to disagree with you but instead to underline your point.

The system is founded on self-interest across the board. I object to trying to rig it so that the self-interest of schools dominates the interest of the players.

I agree with raising Ray Smith's example. It's very reasonable to see the one and done rule as costing Ray a minimum of 5 million dollars. There's no one at Arizona or in the NBA that will compensate him for that. Ray is the one who has to shoulder that, and it sucks that an artificial market limit imposed and the charade of student-athleticism takes from him like that.

And yeah, I just added to the wall of text.

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

EVCat wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

EVCat wrote:

gumby wrote: "Any more questions for the student athletes?"

Yeah, I have one. Any thought on ever being a sophomore?


The NBA and their dreams would cease to exist?

That's a whole different discussion, whether college athletics should be a minor league for the NBA or whether they should pony up and leave our game alone.

But how do you do that? We cannot mandate kids day in school. We cannot mandate they are not allowed to pursue their career in the NBA. Do we put a cap on recruiting, saying NCAA programs are not allowed to recruit kids in the top 100? Or do we do away with basketball altogether?

I don't think anyone with even a slight interest in the academic process feels comfortable about the current marriage of NCAA basketball to the NBA. We know we are being used. We know we are using these kids. But, short of eliminating the sport or artificially capping the level of player we recruit, what can we do? That is really up to the NBA and what they do. We can't tell kids "nope...you cannot leave school for $16MM guaranteed. Get back to the stipend line."

Arizona basketball makes 10 million a year. Let's not pretend that players are the only ones using the system for money.

Players want the NBA dream. Schools want the revenue. This isn't about making normal students into players. It's taking kids who want the NBA dream and keeping them eligible so the school can make money and fans can cheer for a top team.

I account for that. My quote is bolded above. "We know we are using these kids."

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I didn't mean to disagree with you but instead to underline your point.

The system is founded on self-interest across the board. I object to trying to rig it so that the self-interest of schools dominates the interest of the players.

I agree with raising Ray Smith's example. It's very reasonable to see the one and done rule as costing Ray a minimum of 5 million dollars. There's no one at Arizona or in the NBA that will compensate him for that. Ray is the one who has to shoulder that, and it sucks that an artificial market limit imposed and the charade of student-athleticism takes from him like that.

And yeah, I just added to the wall of text.

Cool. I agree

(I just added more wall. I feel like Tru....wait, no politics on the basketball board).

Would have LOVED to see Lauri next to Ayton next year but he should be a top 10 pick so its certainly not shocking to see him go! Good luck Lauri!

Congratulations, Lauri.

Oh, wow. I did both things. It wasn't either/or!

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Arizona basketball makes 10 million a year. Let's not pretend that players are the only ones using the system for money.

Players want the NBA dream. Schools want the revenue. This isn't about making normal students into players. It's taking kids who want the NBA dream and keeping them eligible so the school can make money and fans can cheer for a top team.

That would be true under the baseball rule, too. The revenue would still flow.

Don't want a wall of text? Don't copy a wall of text.

NYCat wrote:This is the most mundane discussion ever filled with walls of texts. And it doesn't say anything new that has been said before, countless times.

Congratulate Lauri, wish him luck? Nah, better talk about the Association entry rules

Lauri thread. Can congratulate unencumbered.

http://www.beardownwildcats.com/viewtop ... &start=800" target="_blank

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
It's probably my background, but I like to be straightforward about it.

I've posted it before, but I played D1 ball with players who left early and were drafted. Some players care about school. Some don't, except to the extent it makes them eligible. All of them want to go to the NBA and would bounce instantly to be a top pick.

I get why a fan would want it to be different, but I totally get it from the player's perspective. They want to achieve their dreams. There's nothing that will change that.

Gift and a curse. More exposure to pro scouts, but a smaller window to show them what you can do. With all the scouting services and information available on the interwebs, it's clear to see why playing at certain schools for exposure is less of a big deal these days, and likely takes a back seat to just making sure you play somewhere that will have enough games against good competition on their schedule.

gumby wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Arizona basketball makes 10 million a year. Let's not pretend that players are the only ones using the system for money.

Players want the NBA dream. Schools want the revenue. This isn't about making normal students into players. It's taking kids who want the NBA dream and keeping them eligible so the school can make money and fans can cheer for a top team.

That would be true under the baseball rule, too. The revenue would still flow.

Unless you're a player forced to return by the baseball rule who shreds a knee and goes from 10 million guaranteed to zilch.

That's my basic complaint. The artificial restraint absolutely benefits the school, coach and fans. It leaves the player out in the cold when the player is the one whose future is truly at stake the most in the decision.

When Ray Smith misses a potential guaranteed NBA deal, Arizona keeps making revenue. Fans cheer for Allonzo, Rawle and Kobi at the 3 instead of Ray. Sean Miller recruits someone new. The only one who doesn't recoup the loss is Ray, and that isn't fair. Players should be allowed more freedom, not less.

rgdeuce wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
It's probably my background, but I like to be straightforward about it.

I've posted it before, but I played D1 ball with players who left early and were drafted. Some players care about school. Some don't, except to the extent it makes them eligible. All of them want to go to the NBA and would bounce instantly to be a top pick.

I get why a fan would want it to be different, but I totally get it from the player's perspective. They want to achieve their dreams. There's nothing that will change that.

Gift and a curse. More exposure to pro scouts, but a smaller window to show them what you can do. With all the scouting services and information available on the interwebs, it's clear to see why playing at certain schools for exposure is less of a big deal these days, and likely takes a back seat to just making sure you play somewhere that will have enough games against good competition on their schedule.

If you're a big time prospect, the NBA has a good breakdown on you before you hit your senior year...of high school.

The string of European busts (Darko, Tskitshvili) led NBA organizations to restructure their scouting. There is so much more time and effort devoted nowadays to getting early evaluations on kids.

If you can play, the NBA will find you. The NBA has stopped caring about college name. Look at Damian Lillard and CJ McCollum. Both guys from low majors, both high draft picks starting and getting paid.

EVCat wrote:

PHXCATS wrote:I wish basketball was just like the MLB rule. Go out of HS if you want but if you go to college you stay at least three years.

This would be perfect. The baseball law does have a bit of an out for older seniors...it is 3 years or 21 years old. Ben Diggins used that as an out a few years back, leaving after his sophomore year because he was already 21. But, yes...this would be the best rule to have.

Problem is, we have to convince the NBAPA that it is in their best interest. I think it is...it certainly extends careers for those who are already in the league...if they think selfishly, the start of the rule would then slow the flow of talent for a couple of years. But their concern is it limits career earnings by 2 or 3 years for the best players, and that it is a bullshit market restrictor. They have been pretty clear they won't play ball (pun intended) for something like that. The NBA commissioner has said he would like to pursue a 2 year rule...I think that is the best we can hope for with the NBAPA position

Ive been on record numerous times disagreeing with this so I will keep it short: Baseball has the following minor league levels: Rookie; short season advanced rookie; short season A; low A; high A; AA; and AAA. NBA has the NBA Developmental league with 22 teams. The NBA would have to compile a farm system similar to MLB first, because you would have to accommodate all the high school studs, very good HS players, JUCO guys, and the NCAA guys who left after 3 or 4 years (or reached 21). You know what happens to High School studs who sign out of high school? You never hear about them unless you follow your favorite teams minor league blogs, subscribe to Baseball America, or start digging through google and finding random write ups. You never see those guys play until they get to the MLB Futures game in July, and even then, not all the studs go. The other option is watching them play when they come to play the minor league team in your town if the player is playing at that level. It also pushes guys to go to JUCO for a year or two, where you will never see or hear about them. Also, more guys will pull a Brandon Jennings and get paid in Europe for a year.

There is no perfect scenario. 3 years is too much without the options you proposed. 2 years may be a fair balance, but its not completely necessary IMO and even then, you may be pushing some more to Europe. At least with 1, we get to see the best compete against great comp once or twice a week on TV if you have the sports package on cable. You get to see the next Lebron James or Kobe Bryant actually play in March Madness games. Id rather have that than deal with what baseball does, where most of the elite talent is not going to play in the NCAA. Why would they? NCAA baseball loses a ton of talent to JUCO and guys being drafted out of HS. Generally speaking, baseball is a white, middle to upper middle class game in America. Most stars in the NBA do not fall within the same demographics. You dangle a $50,000 signing bonus in front of a kid from a poor urban neighborhood, what you think is going to happen? $50,000 to someone who has nothing is not the same as Blake, whose parents live in a $300,000 house in a nice neighborhood, whose dad has business ties so if baseball falls through, he still has his UCLA degree and can hit the ground running. IMO, this is blatantly setting up young urban blacks up to fail and would only lead to even more exploitation. Minor league baseball is cut throat. There are no guaranteed contracts and they can give you your walking papers at any time. Its bad for the kids and bad for the fans.

As someone who was a part of that process and knows countless people who went through the same, I thank my lucky stars every day that I blew my arm out and was never drafted. I cant begin to tell you the number of friends and ex-teammates who never made it, have no employment skills, haven't picked up a pen for 5-7 years outside of signing autographs, etc. who enter the real world with nothing. Living off spouses, living off family, working low-wage jobs. It's sad. And every single one of them came from middle class or higher backgrounds. Minor league baseball is slave labor, you just hope you are the slave who got a million dollar signing bonus to fall back on in the event you dont make it.

rgdeuce wrote:I thank my lucky stars every day that I blew my arm out and was never drafted. I cant begin to tell you the number of friends and ex-teammates who never made it, have no employment skills, haven't picked up a pen for 5-7 years outside of signing autographs, etc. who enter the real world with nothing. Living off spouses, living off family, working low-wage jobs. It's sad. And every single one of them came from middle class or higher backgrounds. Minor league baseball is slave labor, you just hope you are the slave who got a million dollar signing bonus to fall back on in the event you dont make it.

One of my coworkers married a baseball player who was in the Angels organization. He made it all the up to AAA, but was a first baseman who couldn't hit the long ball. Never held onto a minimum wage job more than a year after that.

She was finally glad when he hit aged 50 or so since then she could say he was "retired".

Glory days, well, they'll pass you by*



*-Since Gumby has been posting relevant lyrics to songs, thought I might as well.

Trier will do what trier does. I'm done wishing and hoping that this mercurial payer will put the good of the team first. If he does make a decision soon, fantastic, and if he comes back even better, but I'm not holding my breath for his timeline

Merkin wrote:

rgdeuce wrote:I thank my lucky stars every day that I blew my arm out and was never drafted. I cant begin to tell you the number of friends and ex-teammates who never made it, have no employment skills, haven't picked up a pen for 5-7 years outside of signing autographs, etc. who enter the real world with nothing. Living off spouses, living off family, working low-wage jobs. It's sad. And every single one of them came from middle class or higher backgrounds. Minor league baseball is slave labor, you just hope you are the slave who got a million dollar signing bonus to fall back on in the event you dont make it.

One of my coworkers married a baseball player who was in the Angels organization. He made it all the up to AAA, but was a first baseman who couldn't hit the long ball. Never held onto a minimum wage job more than a year after that.

She was finally glad when he hit aged 50 or so since then she could say he was "retired".

Glory days, well, they'll pass you by*

*-Since Gumby has been posting relevant lyrics to songs, thought I might as well.

That's the norm. I have a buddy w kids working at a grocer chain, one who is a grunt-level construction laborer (kids), one who knocks on doors pushing solar panels (kids), one who works at a batting cage and providing cheap "instruction" to little leaguers, one who finally went to engine repair school and I assume he is working at a shop, one who bounces from car dealership to car dealership (kids), a shoe salesman (kids), and a few (relatively unsuccessful) real estate agents (kids). Got plenty more. The success stories: daddy had his own business and was given an executive position after he was released from the Angels, and a guy who did door-to-door home security system sales with a no-name company (buddies company) and the company completely blew up and he now has an executive position. I'm racking my brain to think of more and cant. Of course, the lure of making $13+ million a season that two ex-teammates are making in the bigs right now is enough to keep them jumping.

without copying the text, rgdeuce...I totally agree.

The 3 year baseball plan is (and I did not make this clear) "perfect" for the dream that fans want of players being in school for 3+ years.

I do not advocate it at all. 2 would be a nice compromise, but it has to be demonstrated to be in the player's best interest or the union should reject it in hand. The major difference between baseball and basketball, however, is the list of players that are likely to make it is considerably smaller for basketball, and the 5+ levels of minor league would not be required to run a basketball minor league. Really, a developed D-League would be sufficient. 30 teams, 450 roster spots, you have everyone covered. 15 teams, 225 spots makes more sense.

But I don't want it to happen. I like college basketball, even in its current version, because one and dones are still rare, and if your program (us) has a lot of them, it's because you are recruiting at an elite level. But, still...the majority of our players will be here 3 or 4 years and the vast majority of D1 players will play 4 years.

I am really thinking it would be better to go to the high school entry rule if you could get a 2 year guarantee to any player who goes to college. Why restrict the players the NBA wants now for a 5 month trip to StateU?

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

gumby wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Arizona basketball makes 10 million a year. Let's not pretend that players are the only ones using the system for money.

Players want the NBA dream. Schools want the revenue. This isn't about making normal students into players. It's taking kids who want the NBA dream and keeping them eligible so the school can make money and fans can cheer for a top team.

That would be true under the baseball rule, too. The revenue would still flow.

Unless you're a player forced to return by the baseball rule who shreds a knee and goes from 10 million guaranteed to zilch.

That's my basic complaint. The artificial restraint absolutely benefits the school, coach and fans. It leaves the player out in the cold when the player is the one whose future is truly at stake the most in the decision.

When Ray Smith misses a potential guaranteed NBA deal, Arizona keeps making revenue. Fans cheer for Allonzo, Rawle and Kobi at the 3 instead of Ray. Sean Miller recruits someone new. The only one who doesn't recoup the loss is Ray, and that isn't fair. Players should be allowed more freedom, not less.

You missed your calling as a player agent. I'm a college basketball agent.

Gotta tell ya, the pay sucks.

Merkin wrote:

rgdeuce wrote:I thank my lucky stars every day that I blew my arm out and was never drafted. I cant begin to tell you the number of friends and ex-teammates who never made it, have no employment skills, haven't picked up a pen for 5-7 years outside of signing autographs, etc. who enter the real world with nothing. Living off spouses, living off family, working low-wage jobs. It's sad. And every single one of them came from middle class or higher backgrounds. Minor league baseball is slave labor, you just hope you are the slave who got a million dollar signing bonus to fall back on in the event you dont make it.

One of my coworkers married a baseball player who was in the Angels organization. He made it all the up to AAA, but was a first baseman who couldn't hit the long ball. Never held onto a minimum wage job more than a year after that.

She was finally glad when he hit aged 50 or so since then she could say he was "retired".

Glory days, well, they'll pass you by*



*-Since Gumby has been posting relevant lyrics to songs, thought I might as well.

Put me in coach! I'm ready to play!

Merkin wrote:

rgdeuce wrote:I thank my lucky stars every day that I blew my arm out and was never drafted. I cant begin to tell you the number of friends and ex-teammates who never made it, have no employment skills, haven't picked up a pen for 5-7 years outside of signing autographs, etc. who enter the real world with nothing. Living off spouses, living off family, working low-wage jobs. It's sad. And every single one of them came from middle class or higher backgrounds. Minor league baseball is slave labor, you just hope you are the slave who got a million dollar signing bonus to fall back on in the event you dont make it.

One of my coworkers married a baseball player who was in the Angels organization. He made it all the up to AAA, but was a first baseman who couldn't hit the long ball. Never held onto a minimum wage job more than a year after that.

She was finally glad when he hit aged 50 or so since then she could say he was "retired".

Glory days, well, they'll pass you by*



*-Since Gumby has been posting relevant lyrics to songs, thought I might as well.

Even among those who did make it, an alarming number blow their money.

From wiki:

According to a 2009 Sports Illustrated article, 78% of National Football League (NFL) players are either bankrupt or are under financial stress within two years of retirement and an estimated 60% of National Basketball Association players go bankrupt within five years after leaving their sport.[1]

Vince Young – After earning $45 million in salary and endorsements, Vince Young is one of the most recent pro athletes to go broke.

Antoine Walker – Despite earning $108 million in salary while playing in the NBA, Antoine Walker had to declare bankruptcy in 2010 listing assets of $5 million and debts of $13 million thanks to bad real estate investments and gambling debts.

Evander Holyfield – After earning $250 million as a heavyweight champion, in 2008 a bank foreclosed on Evander's $10 million, 54,000 square foot, 109 bedroom Atlanta mansion.

Kenny Anderson – Despite earning $63 million in salary, Kenny Anderson was broke the day he left the NBA. After filing for bankruptcy, Anderson became a K-12 school teacher.

Warren Sapp – In April 2012, Sapp filed for bankruptcy claiming assets worth $6.5 million and debts of $7 million. The $7 million is owed to the IRS, child support to four different women, and medical bills.

Allen Iverson – In February 2012, Iverson told a Georgia judge that he was flat broke and could not pay an $860k jewelry debt. Iverson earned $154 million in salary and $30-50 million in endorsements during his career. Iverson was known to travel with a 50-person entourage, lost millions of dollars gambling, lavished friends with expensive gifts and had massive monthly child support obligations.

Mike Tyson - earned an estimated $400 million over his career, but declared bankruptcy in 2003.[30]

Sheryl Swoopes earned an estimated $50 million playing basketball, and declared bankruptcy in 2004, owing $711,050.[31] Swoopes admitted, "I didn't surround myself with the right people. I got in a position where it was like, 'Oh, wow, what happened?'"[31]

Former Boston Red Sox star Jack Clark filed for bankruptcy in the middle of his 8.7-million-dollar contract.

Maybe there's something to getting an education ...

gumby wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:

gumby wrote:

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Arizona basketball makes 10 million a year. Let's not pretend that players are the only ones using the system for money.

Players want the NBA dream. Schools want the revenue. This isn't about making normal students into players. It's taking kids who want the NBA dream and keeping them eligible so the school can make money and fans can cheer for a top team.

That would be true under the baseball rule, too. The revenue would still flow.

Unless you're a player forced to return by the baseball rule who shreds a knee and goes from 10 million guaranteed to zilch.

That's my basic complaint. The artificial restraint absolutely benefits the school, coach and fans. It leaves the player out in the cold when the player is the one whose future is truly at stake the most in the decision.

When Ray Smith misses a potential guaranteed NBA deal, Arizona keeps making revenue. Fans cheer for Allonzo, Rawle and Kobi at the 3 instead of Ray. Sean Miller recruits someone new. The only one who doesn't recoup the loss is Ray, and that isn't fair. Players should be allowed more freedom, not less.

You missed your calling as a player agent. I'm a college basketball agent.

Gotta tell ya, the pay sucks.

If I'm a player agent, can you forward Lauri Markannen my number? I like the looks of that kid.

Awfully close to April 1...If Lauri doesn't hire an agent in the next 2 days I bet theres a press conference to announce he's coming back

Too soon?

Jefe wrote:Awfully close to April 1...If Lauri doesn't hire an agent in the next 2 days I bet theres a press conference to announce he's coming back

Too soon?

April 1 is the day Paulo Cruz declares for the NBA, and Lauri won't want to steal his thunder.

Check out the bump in money for next year

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale" target="_blank
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale/2018" target="_blank

#1 pick gets $5mil more. Even the 30th pick gets an extra mil over 3 years

Is this why Zo is staying?

Just watched Brian Bowen play against Emmanuel Akot. Akot isn't ready to reclassify up to this year's class, he needs another year of improvement, but the ball handling, the passing, the shot form are all great and the potential to be an elite defender is more than evident, the kid is a high major athlete. Bowen would be a major player day one and just from my eyes could be a plus defender if he wanted to be and were coached up to be. He's not the fleetest of foot, but he should be capable due to length and enough speed laterally. His offense is already there of course and he knows how to create for himself.

Yeah I don't want Akot reclassifying even though he fills a need that Ray Smith left. I think Ira Lee can give us defense on the 6'6-6'8 kids.

Akot isn't quite ready for college ball and the physicality it presents. He's still too raw.

PennZona20 wrote:Yeah I don't want Akot reclassifying even though he fills a need that Ray Smith left. I think Ira Lee can give us defense on the 6'6-6'8 kids.

Akot isn't quite ready for college ball and the physicality it presents. He's still too raw.

Yeah the thought with Akot is if he reclassifies we'd have a wing defender and I'm not sure about that. I think he absolutely will be at the very least a high major wing defender in the future, but he certainly won't be a defensive stopper if he enrolled next year. Stay in HS one more year and develop my man.

rgdeuce wrote: There is no perfect scenario. 3 years is too much without the options you proposed. 2 years may be a fair balance, but its not completely necessary IMO and even then, you may be pushing some more to Europe. At least with 1, we get to see the best compete against great comp once or twice a week on TV if you have the sports package on cable. You get to see the next Lebron James or Kobe Bryant actually play in March Madness games. Id rather have that than deal with what baseball does, where most of the elite talent is not going to play in the NCAA. Why would they? NCAA baseball loses a ton of talent to JUCO and guys being drafted out of HS. Generally speaking, baseball is a white, middle to upper middle class game in America. Most stars in the NBA do not fall within the same demographics. You dangle a $50,000 signing bonus in front of a kid from a poor urban neighborhood, what you think is going to happen? $50,000 to someone who has nothing is not the same as Blake, whose parents live in a $300,000 house in a nice neighborhood, whose dad has business ties so if baseball falls through, he still has his UCLA degree and can hit the ground running. IMO, this is blatantly setting up young urban blacks up to fail and would only lead to even more exploitation. Minor league baseball is cut throat. There are no guaranteed contracts and they can give you your walking papers at any time. Its bad for the kids and bad for the fans.

First, have to say I love your posts and your perspective.

Not sure I understand why adding a year to the college commitment or just letting kids go direct from HS is so much worse and why the OAD rule is the best compromise. Without making this a huge socio-economic debate, many young urban blacks are already set up to fail in far more serious ways. So, I can't make that leap with you. Besides, most of these kids have someone or many someones in their ear from age...what?...5? 8? 10? saying they can be like Mike. A lot may have the best of intentions, many may just be gravy-training. Has nothing to do with NCAA or NBA policy. The percentages are what they are for all professional sports. Your odds are slim. Really slim. Who is telling them this while also encouraging them to get jobs, stay in school, get good grades, etc.? That said, there's absolutely exploitation going on from both sides. I'm pretty fatigued by it. Maybe numb is a better adjective. Those feel-good chest-thumping NCAA ads about student athletes going professional in something besides sports? Let's have a little honesty and show the kids who are lining up the hats on the table or shedding 3 different jerseys and making a general self-indulgent spectacle of themselves and their "commitments". Meanwhile, I'll take a lower standard of play any day with kids who want to be in school, want to play college ball, and are serious about getting degrees. I love college sports above all others. I enjoy getting to know these kids beyond their exploits on the court 30-35 days in the fall/winter. One thing I like about Miller is he has a knack for assembling teams full of genuinely good dudes. I love seeing them develop from year to year under a coach I really admire and appreciate. I have zero interest in salary caps, constantly changing rosters, trade demands, or gauging the NBA prospects of our incoming classes year after year before they've even checked into their dorms at UofA.

Your previous post talks about the minor league system and how much more the NBA would have to add to have anything remotely close to a farm system. Well, OK. They seem to be doing pretty f'ing well as far as revenue is concerned, so get to work! To be clear, I don't blame any player for leaving early and I'll cheer like hell for them while they're in our godawful unis. If they can get paid to play ball then go for it. I just want the charade to end and the system to be radically changed as gumby suggests.

I just want to say that, IMO, neither Arizona nor the NCAAis using these kids for money. The amount of logistics and effort to maintain a top tier basketball program put up against $10 million in annual profit? No thanks. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that your average NCAA program is in the red.

Think about it for a minute... A student fee of $300 would more than replace the annual profit of our flagship athletic program. I know which one I would rather administer if it was only about the money. So if the UA is using or abusing student athletes for the cash, then there is a lot more cash flowing under the surface than is reported in the balance sheet.

Football? Different story.